Should the Church become more liberal?

[Hallelujahjah]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

I occupy a sort of Moderate Hero position on this myself. I want the Church to become more socially liberal but at the same time, I don't like how most other people who want the Church to be more socially liberal also want the Church to become more theologically liberal, they think Jesus wasn't necessarily real, if he was, the miracles probably didn't happen, Christ as a metaphor is more important than Christ as a reality. So I'm a social liberal, theological conservative. I don't mind gays but I also believe in the Virgin Birth (or at the very least, think if there was no Virgin Birth, then Christianity is basically useless).

Also, what the hell does smoking weed have to do with Jesus?

[RI]

I don't care what other denominations do, but the Catholic Church literally cannot budge on most of the major issues (abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc.). Doing so would be a huge blow to their credibility, casting doubt on their entire raison d'etre.

[Bigby]

This identity crisis with the Catholic Church is hilarious from my Southern Baptist perspective. If you're a Protestant and you don't like what your church is doing, you can just break away.

[Classic Conservative]

As a person who is a practicing Tridentine Catholic, I think that the Church should go back to our more traditional roots. I firmly believe we should have the Latin Mass reinstated, Nuns should wear habits etc. Do you know at what point Catholicism started its downfall, after V2. A lot of Catholics weren't active after that, we had not many vocations or new brothers and sisters join. The Traditional Catholic Movement is the right and only way to go. Sit Dominus Deus et securos vos faciemus.

[SNJ1985]

The church (I'm speaking about all churches in general, as the OP also seems to be) should become more conservative, and it needs to recognize that staying faithful to the Bible is more important than appeasing modern society.

[Classic Conservative]

But I also believe the Christian People, who are the body of Christ in its entirety should become unified on many issues, our flocks should not separate and call each other names and do petty things but we should fight and protect for Christian values and Social Justice, helping the less fortunate through charity, feeding the hungry and the other Works of Mercy.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

As a person who is a practicing Tridentine Catholic, I think that the Church should go back to our more traditional roots. I firmly believe we should have the Latin Mass reinstated, Nuns should wear habits etc. Do you know at what point Catholicism started its downfall, after V2. A lot of Catholics weren't active after that, we had not many vocations or new brothers and sisters join. The Traditional Catholic Movement is the right and only way to go. Sit Dominus Deus et securos vos faciemus.

I actually agree with a Classic Conservative post for once though I also simultaneously believe we should start performing nontraditional marriages and potentially having female priests. Iffy on contraception - I don't agree with the basis for it one bit, but I think a case could still be made. Still, a lot of the third world Catholics would probably be better off with it. Torn. But the Latin would be amazing.

Also, the logic is faulty in saying V2 caused the downfall. There are many, many other factors that have related to the downfall in religiosity across all religions in the developed world.

[Small L]

I don't care what other denominations do, but the Catholic Church literally cannot budge on most of the major issues (abortion, contraception, gay marriage, etc.). Doing so would be a huge blow to their credibility, casting doubt on their entire raison d'etre.

I agree. This is what a lot of dissenting Catholics don't seem to understand.

Also, this is probably in the wrong subforum.

[Famous Mortimer]

I think the Church should allow married priests, women priests, and be cool with gays.

I also think we should go back to a Latin Mass.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

I occupy a sort of Moderate Hero position on this myself. I want the Church to become more socially liberal but at the same time, I don't like how most other people who want the Church to be more socially liberal also want the Church to become more theologically liberal, they think Jesus wasn't necessarily real, if he was, the miracles probably didn't happen, Christ as a metaphor is more important than Christ as a reality. So I'm a social liberal, theological conservative. I don't mind gays but I also believe in the Virgin Birth (or at the very least, think if there was no Virgin Birth, then Christianity is basically useless).

Also, what the hell does smoking weed have to do with Jesus?

I think the Church should allow married priests, women priests, and be cool with gays.

I also think we should go back to a Latin Mass.

Aren't you an atheist?

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

I occupy a sort of Moderate Hero position on this myself. I want the Church to become more socially liberal but at the same time, I don't like how most other people who want the Church to be more socially liberal also want the Church to become more theologically liberal, they think Jesus wasn't necessarily real, if he was, the miracles probably didn't happen, Christ as a metaphor is more important than Christ as a reality. So I'm a social liberal, theological conservative. I don't mind gays but I also believe in the Virgin Birth (or at the very least, think if there was no Virgin Birth, then Christianity is basically useless).

Also, what the hell does smoking weed have to do with Jesus?

I think the Church should allow married priests, women priests, and be cool with gays.

I also think we should go back to a Latin Mass.

Aren't you an atheist?

I would say I'm culturally atheist. I still cling to Catholicism because of Pascal's Wager and because being even slightly religious in 2015 is kind of edgy and feeds my aesthetic.

[Bigby]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

I occupy a sort of Moderate Hero position on this myself. I want the Church to become more socially liberal but at the same time, I don't like how most other people who want the Church to be more socially liberal also want the Church to become more theologically liberal, they think Jesus wasn't necessarily real, if he was, the miracles probably didn't happen, Christ as a metaphor is more important than Christ as a reality. So I'm a social liberal, theological conservative. I don't mind gays but I also believe in the Virgin Birth (or at the very least, think if there was no Virgin Birth, then Christianity is basically useless).

Also, what the hell does smoking weed have to do with Jesus?

I think the Church should allow married priests, women priests, and be cool with gays.

I also think we should go back to a Latin Mass.

Aren't you an atheist?

I would say I'm culturally atheist. I still cling to Catholicism because of Pascal's Wager and because being even slightly religious in 2015 is kind of edgy and feeds my aesthetic.

Anti-religious fedoras are not THAT common, are they?

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't think so. America is leading towards progressivism and sooner or later homosexual marriages and drug using won't be stigmatized anymore. However there will be many people who will disagree with all those things. Different Church denominations (especially the Catholic one) will be the last bastions of traditional values. So people need to understand that religion is the thing that should not be changed anyhow.

I occupy a sort of Moderate Hero position on this myself. I want the Church to become more socially liberal but at the same time, I don't like how most other people who want the Church to be more socially liberal also want the Church to become more theologically liberal, they think Jesus wasn't necessarily real, if he was, the miracles probably didn't happen, Christ as a metaphor is more important than Christ as a reality. So I'm a social liberal, theological conservative. I don't mind gays but I also believe in the Virgin Birth (or at the very least, think if there was no Virgin Birth, then Christianity is basically useless).

Also, what the hell does smoking weed have to do with Jesus?

I think the Church should allow married priests, women priests, and be cool with gays.

I also think we should go back to a Latin Mass.

Aren't you an atheist?

I would say I'm culturally atheist. I still cling to Catholicism because of Pascal's Wager and because being even slightly religious in 2015 is kind of edgy and feeds my aesthetic.

Anti-religious fedoras are not THAT common, are they?

No. In my experience, most people under 30 don't care about religion one way or the other. It's not something they think about.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

To answer the question, in terms of politics, yes. After all my mantra is "all liberal, all the time", I'd apply that to a church too.

However in hipster Christian fashion I'm still orthodox theologically. I don't consider that "conservative" though.

[C r a b c a k e]

Married priests are really quite essential for the Catholic Church at this point. It's not healthy, is terrible for recruitment of a rapidly thinning clergy and will vastly diminish the sex scandals the Church has been known for.

Of course we should Ask what conservative really means in this context. Does it mean the hyper-capitalist American mega churches where sermons are indistinguishable from business ventures and everything is tied deeply into the rough and tumble of Reaganite politics? Does it mean the dark and austere Puritan aesthetic? Or the sort of ultra-elaborate almost paganistic rituals of some churches?

[RI]

Married priests are really quite essential for the Catholic Church at this point. It's not healthy, is terrible for recruitment of a rapidly thinning clergy and will vastly diminish the sex scandals the Church has been known for.

Seeing as the Catholic Church already has married priests, that's one area that Catholicism could "evolve" on that wouldn't affect much doctrinally. While I'm not a huge fan of the idea, seeing as it's already in practice, I have to imagine the RCC will have to reconcile its two effective "classes" of priests at some point.

[TJ in Oregon]

In answer to the question, no, it should not. The Catholic Church should follow its own teachings. It should not chase after whatever the fad is at the moment. That's the point of Tradition: the hermeneutic of continuity. Really that's the point of having teachings at all. If the Church were to relax its doctrine to the point where the entire world could be faithful members without conversion it would cease to have any purpose at all.

Married priests are really quite essential for the Catholic Church at this point. It's not healthy, is terrible for recruitment of a rapidly thinning clergy and will vastly diminish the sex scandals the Church has been known for.

Seeing as the Catholic Church already has married priests, that's one area that Catholicism could "evolve" on that wouldn't affect much doctrinally. While I'm not a huge fan of the idea, seeing as it's already in practice, I have to imagine the RCC will have to reconcile its two effective "classes" of priests at some point.

It wouldn't change anything doctrinally and that's the reason why the Catholic Church could do it. I don't think it would really change the situation much; the way to get more men ordained as priests is not to make it easier but to get more men willing to devote their lives to Christ and to the Church.

As a person who is a practicing Tridentine Catholic, I think that the Church should go back to our more traditional roots. I firmly believe we should have the Latin Mass reinstated, Nuns should wear habits etc. Do you know at what point Catholicism started its downfall, after V2. A lot of Catholics weren't active after that, we had not many vocations or new brothers and sisters join. The Traditional Catholic Movement is the right and only way to go. Sit Dominus Deus et securos vos faciemus.

I actually agree with a Classic Conservative post for once though I also simultaneously believe we should start performing nontraditional marriages and potentially having female priests. Iffy on contraception - I don't agree with the basis for it one bit, but I think a case could still be made. Still, a lot of the third world Catholics would probably be better off with it. Torn. But the Latin would be amazing.

Also, the logic is faulty in saying V2 caused the downfall. There are many, many other factors that have related to the downfall in religiosity across all religions in the developed world.

Most of the changes made "from Vatican II" aren't actually in the text of Vatican II. For example the practice of receiving communion in the hand was actually implemented illicitly in the US by a certain "liberal" Archbishop who rigged a vote of the American bishops and claimed the practice was already widespread when it wasn't (which qualified the US for a dispensation from Rome). As a Catholic I accept the documents from Vatican II as valid and agree with their contents to the best of my knowledge but think we ought to follow what they actually say not whatever we feel like. Personally, I couldn't care any less what language the Mass is said in but it should be done reverently and orientated toward God. It is not a "community dinner" in a "gathering space" (or any other horrible meaningless cliche) but rather a sacrifice: Christ’s sacrifice to redeem the human race from sin and death. We ought to act like we actually believe that. The number of candles on the altar and whether the laity are supposed to respond verbally during Mass are unimportant. Instead the Church ought to concern herself with the existence of sin and the need for us--yes all of us--to go to Confession honestly and humbly because we really believe what is happening on that alter. Pope Francis has declared this upcoming year as the 'Year of Mercy' so perhaps he will finally try to get the Church to do that. It's not all that worrisome that American Catholics sin but what is is that we largely don't accept that we're sinning and confess it.

[Classic Conservative]

The priesthood is an issue that I'm torn over firstly because I want to be married but I also want to serve God. the only possible way now is through Permanant Deaconhood, which I will become a Deacon one day, G-d prevailing. The priesthood I understand what it means with the man devoting himself to G-d eternally. But I really believe in Traditional Priesthood. The thing with Latin Mass, TJ is if you go back 100 years ago and ask say a Northern Baptist about the Catholicism they would say Latin Mass, everyone knew about it. It was what made us Catholics, we are based off of tradition, we aren't a living church, we are eternal the church for 2,000 years was Latin Speaking, and know Pope John 23 says that the Church must change. I agree with some texts of V2, allowing women on the alter etc. but changing our Catholic traditions like the holy sacrifice of the mass is wrong. One thing with the sisterhood, I'm taught by a few nuns of Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur, and she's are schools principal and a former mother of the convent and she said the time where her order went down was when they left the habit. Our society is one that people want to be noticed and when the habit is taken off you can't tell if there lay or not. Many orders that have habits are growing but very few ones without habits are.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Wanting to be noticed for ones good acts makes the good acts invalid. The lost people are taking that path for the wrong reasons.

Also, I think you were responding to the conversation at large, but I would just like to clarify, I have no problems with basically anything from Vatican II as nice as it would be to get the Latin mass back due to years of tradition. It's still offered somewhat widely enough that one could conceivably attend.

[Mr. Smith]

No, and nor should it become more conservative.

No flipping to one, or the other for the sake of what the world "demands". That's apostasy, which enough of which has happened.

Re-posturing current doctrines is okay, but that's it.

TJ is pretty much entirely correct here.

[TJ in Oregon]

The priesthood is an issue that I'm torn over firstly because I want to be married but I also want to serve God. the only possible way now is through Permanant Deaconhood, which I will become a Deacon one day, G-d prevailing. The priesthood I understand what it means with the man devoting himself to G-d eternally. But I really believe in Traditional Priesthood. The thing with Latin Mass, TJ is if you go back 100 years ago and ask say a Northern Baptist about the Catholicism they would say Latin Mass, everyone knew about it. It was what made us Catholics, we are based off of tradition, we aren't a living church, we are eternal the church for 2,000 years was Latin Speaking, and know Pope John 23 says that the Church must change. I agree with some texts of V2, allowing women on the alter etc. but changing our Catholic traditions like the holy sacrifice of the mass is wrong. One thing with the sisterhood, I'm taught by a few nuns of Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur, and she's are schools principal and a former mother of the convent and she said the time where her order went down was when they left the habit. Our society is one that people want to be noticed and when the habit is taken off you can't tell if there lay or not. Many orders that have habits are growing but very few ones without habits are.

Incidentally the V2 documents didn't require the Mass to be said in the vernacular and most of the council fathers thought they were only making minor optional changes. Must of the changes were made in the implementation and for reasons that seem absurd to Catholics born since.

As for the nuns, the habit wearing orders are the ones whose demographics look like they will survive the next few decades but it's not because of the habit itself but because those orders tend to have a mission young women think is worth joining a convent for. One need not enter the consecrated life to work for social justice. There was a time when young women who were interested in social justice would join a convent but social justice in modern American has become disconnected from God.

[DC Al Fine]

Are we talking theologically or politically?

Theologically: Mostly conservative. Once churches abandon fundamentalism (in the 1920's sense of the word), they become pointless. To paraphrase Flannery O'Connor "If the resurrection is just a symbol, t'hell with it."

Politically: This is less of an issue. Correct politics far less important than correct theology. I dislike the United Church because it is apostate, not because it's pro gay marriage. That said, politics would be a decidedly mixed bag. Mostly I wish churches would stop forming their politics in lock step with a particular political faction instead of looking to their faith.

The focus should still be on correct theology. Get that right and the politics should follow. It would be very hard to arrive at a pro-abortion, view without ignoring the Bible/tradition for example.

[DC Al Fine]

Married priests are really quite essential for the Catholic Church at this point. It's not healthy, is terrible for recruitment of a rapidly thinning clergy and will vastly diminish the sex scandals the Church has been known for.

Seeing as the Catholic Church already has married priests, that's one area that Catholicism could "evolve" on that wouldn't affect much doctrinally. While I'm not a huge fan of the idea, seeing as it's already in practice, I have to imagine the RCC will have to reconcile its two effective "classes" of priests at some point.

It wouldn't change anything doctrinally and that's the reason why the Catholic Church could do it. I don't think it would really change the situation much; the way to get more men ordained as priests is not to make it easier but to get more men willing to devote their lives to Christ and to the Church.

TJ, the ratio of parishoners to priests in the Catholic Church is roughly 2600 to 1. The ratio in NAPARC (a Calvinist ecumenical body) member churches ranges from 75-100 to 1.  I choose NAPARC for comparison because their clergy require similar amounts of education as Catholic priests. These are not "ordained from a cereal box" types.

Large swathes of the difference can be accounted for by:

1) Cultural Catholicism leaves huge numbers of non-mass goers on the rolls, while cultural Calvinism really isn't a thing.

2) Calvinism produces more young men willing devote their lives to Christ and the church than Catholicism (perhaps not in the more devout branches, but my experience with Catholicism reminded me of the Church in Laodicea)

But I would still suggest that these two things can't account for all of the difference. Marriage IMO is a stumbling block for many men considering the priesthood, and it seems to be an unnecessary one.

[afleitch]

It's not about 'being liberal'; it's about becoming more realistic. Talk of the changes that have taken place in society over the past few generations as 'passing fads' demonstrates a complete detachment from the world in which people live and a dismissal of the reasons as to why those changes have happened simply because people are too uncomfortable to talk about them.

It's also worth noting that the Church in general still exists today because it has adequately adjusted itself and repositioned itself in response to societal change for the past 1500 years (try being a 1600's Catholic on all matters today. Try being an 1800's Catholic. You can't because on significant issues you'd be running contrary to the position the Church currently holds) It's declining because it's decided to resist the past 50 years rather than attempt to understand them.