Interesting Louis Theroux Doc on Ultra-Zionists

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

More a case of I don't believe two wrongs make a right. Even if they did, it would make a stronger case for carving a Jewish homeland out of Germany than out of the Levant.

But wow. I can't believe you'd actually try to defend what Irgun did at Deir Yassin. You've always come across as a strong defender of Israeli policy, which I can respect even tho I largely disagree with that policy. But I can't respect defending an action which resembled something out of the Shoah save for who was involved. Thankfully Deir Yassin is the darkest blot on Zionism to date, and hopefully that remains the case. If it doesn't, it won't be because of something the State of Israel does, but something some neo-Irgun group does. I do sometimes use some hyperbolic language on this issue, but I don't see the Zionist desire for Lebensraum leading to the State of Israel emulating Nazi Germany, just Imperial Germany.

[MalaspinaGold]

More a case of I don't believe two wrongs make a right. Even if they did, it would make a stronger case for carving a Jewish homeland out of Germany than out of the Levant.

But wow. I can't believe you'd actually try to defend what Irgun did at Deir Yassin. You've always come across as a strong defender of Israeli policy, which I can respect even tho I largely disagree with that policy. But I can't respect defending an action which resembled something out of the Shoah save for who was involved. Thankfully Deir Yassin is the darkest blot on Zionism to date, and hopefully that remains the case. If it doesn't, it won't be because of something the State of Israel does, but something some neo-Irgun group does. I do sometimes use some hyperbolic language on this issue, but I don't see the Zionist desire for Lebensraum leading to the State of Israel emulating Nazi Germany, just Imperial Germany.

More like creating Israels in Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Spain, etc. etc. etc.

More to the point, and I wish al was here to emphasize this, the Holocaust was not the reason for the creation of Israel. A catalyst it might have been yes, but certainly not the primary reason.

And I tend to view irredentist Zionists as closer to irrendentist pan-Arabsists myself.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

More to the point, and I wish al was here to emphasize this, the Holocaust was not the reason for the creation of Israel. A catalyst it might have been yes, but certainly not the primary reason.

It's difficult to imagine there would have been sufficient Jewish interest in the Zionist project without the Holocaust for it to have reached the point of being able to establish the State of Israel. Even Zionism as a major modern-day movement would've been unlikely without the persecution of Jews in Tsarist Russia.

[MalaspinaGold]

More to the point, and I wish al was here to emphasize this, the Holocaust was not the reason for the creation of Israel. A catalyst it might have been yes, but certainly not the primary reason.

It's difficult to imagine there would have been sufficient Jewish interest in the Zionist project without the Holocaust for it to have reached the point of being able to establish the State of Israel. Even Zionism as a major modern-day movement would've been unlikely without the persecution of Jews in Tsarist Russia.

The 1881 pogroms were instrumental in converting many of the founding father of Zionism from "Maskilism" yes. Without Russian antisemitism at the time Zionism may well not have taken hold on as many as it did.

By contrast, with Israel, even by the time Hitler had taken power, there was a critical mass of Jews in Palestine, that it almost certainly would have happened. Perhaps later, and perhaps with less popular support than it did, but it would have happened. And regarding Jewish interest, keep in mind that Jewish support for Israel only really became "universal" after 1967.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Perhaps, but a large part of the superiority shown by Israeli troops in 1948 was due to their elan which sprung from the belief that it was better to fight and risk death defending the Jewish homeland than flee to a place of a safety. That belief sprung largely from the Shoah which convinced many Jews that being a minority everywhere was not safe. Also the Second World War served as a training ground, giving many in the nascent IDF actual military experience to draw upon, tho there likely would have been a Second World War sometime in the 40's or possibly the 50's even without a belligerent anti-Semitic German regime. Absent the Shoah, Israeli troops would have been fewer and had less elan. At the very least the 1949-1967 cease fire borders would have more closely resembled the partition borders, and may well have not included a corridor linking West Jerusalem with the rest of Israel. It's a somewhat interesting alternative history with a wide variety of possible outcomes, including a rejection of the two-state solution by the UN (or League of Nations if WWII hasn't yet happened) or Britain continuing to soldier on with its mandate. But like most alternative history, which variant you choose depends upon the story one wants to tell.