Christopher Columbus, Italy, Ethnic Background General Discussion

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I, like most people, don't have a subculture.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Is amateur psephology a subculture?

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Subculture, of course.  What the hell do I care about the other 50 billion German Americans, and I barely know any Portuguese Americans.

[politicus]

Subculture, of course.  What the hell do I care about the other 50 billion German Americans, and I barely know any Portuguese Americans.

Where do they hide themselves?

[kcguy]

I'd say "subculture" by default.

Because I can't say that I feel an ethnic identity.  I'm a white guy in a region that's >75% white.  Technically, I'm the grandchildren of immigrants, but I never knew my grandparents, and anyway they were ethnic Germans, which is about the least "ethnic" of any of the ethnic groups in this part of the country.  To feel ethnic, I would need to feel distinctive, and I don't.  I even live within 10 miles of where I was born.

When I was in my late 20's, the answer would have been unquestionably that I connected primarily to the gay subculture.  But as I've gotten older, my circle of friends has become increasingly straight.  At this point, I would still have to put "subculture" over "ethnic identity," but it isn't completely obvious to me which subculture I now most identify with.

[Mr. Smith]

Subculture, no brownie points for guessing why.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Yes (Italian-American), but I've never been happy about it.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Voted for the second option (actually have some understanding of Italian culture).

[Torie]

What is this obsession with Italians now?  So many obsessions, so little time. It kind of makes me fond of the days, when the obsession was with the excrescences of suburbs, with exurbs being the innermost circle of Dantean hell.

[Alcon]

I don't even know what subculture I'd belong to, but it would be hard to care about it less than my ethnicity, so that I guess?

[pikachu]

It'd be interesting to see a racial breakdown for this poll.

[Frodo]

Yes, I knew at the start that he was originally from Genoa who later sought patronage and employment with Portugal before turning to a newly united Spain. 

[traininthedistance]

What is this obsession with Italians now?  So many obsessions, so little time. It kind of makes me fond of the days, when the obsession was with the excrescences of suburbs, with exurbs being the innermost circle of Dantean hell.

The two obsessions are mirror images of each other.  BRTD is right about the suburbs, but for the wrong reasons.  Whereas he is wrong about Italians, but for the right reasons.

[Torie]

What is this obsession with Italians now?  So many obsessions, so little time. It kind of makes me fond of the days, when the obsession was with the excrescences of suburbs, with exurbs being the innermost circle of Dantean hell.

The two obsessions are mirror images of each other.  BRTD is right about the suburbs, but for the wrong reasons.  Whereas he is wrong about Italians, but for the right reasons.

I get where you are gong on the burb thing, but not the Italian thing.

[traininthedistance]

What is this obsession with Italians now?  So many obsessions, so little time. It kind of makes me fond of the days, when the obsession was with the excrescences of suburbs, with exurbs being the innermost circle of Dantean hell.

The two obsessions are mirror images of each other.  BRTD is right about the suburbs, but for the wrong reasons.  Whereas he is wrong about Italians, but for the right reasons.

I get where you are gong on the burb thing, but not the Italian thing.

BRTD's dislike of ethnoreligious identities (which Italian-Americans maintain at far higher levels than most American Christians) seem to stem from a universalist impulse, and also from the frankly anti-opression point of view that people need to have the freedom to worship and identify as they wish.  And also Columbus really was a monster.  It's a perspective– one that is uniquely strong among American liberalism for entirely obvious reasons– that I share!  But then he stretches it way past a reasonable point, leaving behind nuance and understanding for people who really would just rather identify in more, well, traditionalist ways.

Does that make sense?

[Torie]

Yes, thanks, and thanks for the thoughtful and interesting post.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

train, I think what needs to be understood (and that probably doesn't surprise you) is that I hold my association with the hardcore scene and that subculture above all else. But here's the thing: Why wouldn't I? Let's imagine I was an Italian-American. Why would I feel a greater affinity to the people who just happened to have ancestry from the same country as me, than the people who I actually hang out, do things with, and share in common an extremely esoteric subculture and lifestyle that affects all aspects of life, and fuels my politics? And it's not just my scene either this applies to, think of the people who go cosplaying at conventions for another example. I'd imagine they'd think the exact same way.

You seem to understand this, but many (including oddly enough it seems most European posters, despite the fact that the hardcore scene and conventions full of cosplayers certainly exist in Europe too) don't.

[Torie]

train, I think what needs to be understood (and that probably doesn't surprise you) is that I hold my association with the hardcore scene and that subculture above all else. But here's the thing: Why wouldn't I? Let's imagine I was an Italian-American. Why would I feel a greater affinity to the people who just happened to have ancestry from the same country as me, than the people who I actually hang out, do things with, and share in common an extremely esoteric subculture and lifestyle that affects all aspects of life, and fuels my politics? And it's not just my scene either this applies to, think of the people who go cosplaying at conventions for another example. I'd imagine they'd think the exact same way.

You seem to understand this, but many (including oddly enough it seems most European posters, despite the fact that the hardcore scene and conventions full of cosplayers certainly exist in Europe too) don't.

It's kind of like the gay subculture. That subculture trumps everything else, including race and class. It's one of the things I enjoy most about it. You get to meet all kinds of people, and get to know them, in a way that would be far more difficult otherwise.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

For the record another factor you got to consider is my German-Swedish ethnic background, which is pretty normal around these parts and yet no one makes a big a fuss about it as Italians do. The Scandinavian equivalent is Lief Erickson Day, which as noted ALREADY does exist but is far less known, well that's why. It has maybe some Lutefisk dinners in some small Minnesota and North Dakota towns, not some massive through downtown Minneapolis. I'm guessing your average Scandinavian-American isn't even aware of it.

And the closest thing to a German holiday is Oktoberfest, which plenty of non-Germans also go to just as an excuse to get drunk.

BTW I've never eaten lutefisk. In fact I've eaten far more Italian food than Scandinavian or German food.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Columbus Day comes from a time when white ethnics were still discriminated against. White ethics are not discriminated against anymore.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Columbus Day comes from a time when white ethnics were still discriminated against. White ethics are not discriminated against anymore.

White ethnics don't EXIST anymore.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Columbus Day comes from a time when white ethnics were still discriminated against. White ethics are not discriminated against anymore.

White ethnics don't EXIST anymore.

in the Upper Midwest.

[Torie]

Columbus Day comes from a time when white ethnics were still discriminated against. White ethics are not discriminated against anymore.

White ethnics don't EXIST anymore.

You mean white Catholics? In the NY orbit, I still think being Italian has some meaning. It is pretty much gone for the Polish, Irish and of course Germans. Do Greeks count (yes I know not Catholic, but not Orthodox Jewish either, who certainly do have an ethnic identification)?

[Classic Conservative]

Yes (Sicilian) and from Boston Area.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

No, but I understand it.

One of the things I've never understood about Columbus Day is how we can transfer Columbus's alleged transgressions onto America when he wasn't even an American.

While we're on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4xIjWgBEMU