Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
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  Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
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Author Topic: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)  (Read 24919 times)
MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2015, 11:19:06 PM »


My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!

My objection was on time and within protocol. Mind counts. Cris motion to honor my objection by opening a vote on the amendment from the 23rd. Adam was right about Clyde's but completely wrong about mine. You lose on this one Griff.

Posting "Section 5 is a nonstarter" is not a formal objection, JCL, as I'm sure you know from your service in the Senate and the Mideast Assembly. Every legislative body in this game requires members to post "I object" (or something of that nature) in order for said post to be considered an objection. Saying that you dislike the amendment is not enough; otherwise, my post would have counted as an objection as well.

I'll take my lumps on this one and will fight to get said clause removed in another way. Griff, you want to bring that one up? *Facepalm*
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2015, 08:55:48 AM »

I don't know when I should post this, so I'll do it now - and it can be debated as and when.
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There's a clear feeling that the regions should have more exclusive power - without federal interference. This amendment gives control over matters that would have a large impact on the regions - and will make the regional bodies more important within the game, while making regional elections more exciting as more people wish to run for them.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2015, 09:02:18 AM »

The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2015, 09:04:11 AM »

The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2015, 09:38:10 AM »

The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.

I'm referring to this current version (the Truman's amendment approved by the ConCon):

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Both amendments are about regions powers...
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2015, 10:45:08 AM »

The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.

I'm referring to this current version (the Truman's amendment approved by the ConCon):

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Both amendments are about regions powers...
That's saying what regions don't have powers over - whereas mine is what regions have exclusive powers in. It would be a separate section within the constitution.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2015, 11:06:51 AM »

Rather than making two long, minutely-detailed lists of powers for both sides of the federal-regional equation, I suggest we simply list the powers held by the federal government and append that list with the statement "All powers not delegated to the [National Government] by this Constitution are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people." That will both make the Constitution more succinct and broaden the scope of Regional authority (as the Regions will have control over all issues not granted to Nyman, rather than a finite list of duties).

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2015, 11:17:34 AM »

Also, I object to Clyde's amendment. I am generally in favor of devolution, but some of those powers are clearly national concerns. Granting the Regions sole control over "environmental issues," for example, would be crippling at a time when a national response to climate change is a national security prerogative.

Rather than listing certain areas of policy in which the federal government has no say, I would suggest composing a concrete list of powers held by the Senate (or Congress, if we go with bicameralism) and then vest all other powers in the Regions. That way, we could specify that the federal government has control over emissions regulations (for example), but the Regions could retain the right to legislate on conservation and other areas of environmental law.

Likewise, on a stylistic note, the proposed text is very bulky. There is no reason to have 10 sections that all begin "the regional bodies shall control...": we could just as easily have one section listing all the powers held by Nyman/the Regions, which would be much more accessible and succinct. Once again, we are building a framework, not a blueprint: there is no need to cover every detail.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2015, 11:21:01 AM »

@Clyde

So your amendment is about another separate section? Something like this?

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Clyde1998
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« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2015, 11:22:42 AM »

Rather than making two long, minutely-detailed lists of powers for both sides of the federal-regional equation, I suggest we simply list the powers held by the federal government and append that list with the statement "All powers not delegated to the [National Government] by this Constitution are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people." That will both make the Constitution more succinct and broaden the scope of Regional authority (as the Regions will have control over all issues not granted to Nyman, rather than a finite list of duties).

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.
Also, I object to Clyde's amendment. I am generally in favor of devolution, but some of those powers are clearly national concerns. Granting the Regions sole control over "environmental issues," for example, would be crippling at a time when a national response to climate change is a national security prerogative.

Rather than listing certain areas of policy in which the federal government has no say, I would suggest composing a concrete list of powers held by the Senate (or Congress, if we go with bicameralism) and then vest all other powers in the Regions. That way, we could specify that the federal government has control over emissions regulations (for example), but the Regions could retain the right to legislate on conservation and other areas of environmental law.

Likewise, on a stylistic note, the proposed text is very bulky. There is no reason to have 10 sections that all begin "the regional bodies shall control...": we could just as easily have one section listing all the powers held by Nyman/the Regions, which would be much more accessible and succinct. Once again, we are building a framework, not a blueprint: there is no need to cover every detail.
I'm happy to have a set list of which powers are Federal and which are Regional. I'm happy to hold a vote on which powers should be regional/federal. I withdraw my proposal for now - in order to do this.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2015, 04:04:18 PM »

I support Truman's proposal.
Delegates, what do you think? If there's enough consensus, we'll go with that option.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2015, 10:14:04 PM »

     Senator Truman's point about environmental issues reminds me of what Neel Kashkari said about environmental issues when I heard him speak. He said that California tackling environmental issues alone made no sense because we would just lose jobs to other states.

     I will admit that some issues should be dealt with at the national level. I think that we should focus on enumerating those, and leave the rest up to the regions.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2015, 07:06:53 PM »

My proposed Amendment

Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Section ?: Regional Powers
1. The regional governments and legislatures ("regional bodies") shall have exclusive control over the certain devolved matters, without interference from the federal government or senate ("federal bodies"). All laws passed on the devolved matters by the federal bodies shall have no effect.
2. The regional bodies shall control agriculture, forestry and fisheries.
3. The regional bodies shall control education.
4. The regional bodies shall control elections and referenda that only affect their region.
  a. Any referenda that requires the support of more than one region shall require the approval of the regional bodies in question.
5. The regional bodies shall control environmental issues.
6. The regional bodies shall control health and social services.
7. The regional bodies shall control housing policy.
8. The regional bodies shall control media and media regulations.
9. The regional bodies shall control regional law and policing.
10. The regional bodies shall control sport and culture.
11. The regional bodies shall control taxes related to the devolved issues.
  a. Any federal tax related to a devolved issue shall not be required to be payed.
12. The regional bodies will have exclusive control over adoption, marriage, beginning and end of life matters

Red denotes the section to be added
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2015, 07:33:32 PM »

I support Truman's proposal.
Delegates, what do you think? If there's enough consensus, we'll go with that option.

As no-one has objected, I move that we go ahead with this.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2015, 02:41:02 PM »

If JCL is willing to withdraw his amendment, I'll open a 48-hours "nominations" period tomorrow about powers of federal government (the remaining powers are denied to regions). Then a 48-hours vote.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2015, 05:33:20 PM »

Delegates have 24 hours to object to the JCL's amendment.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2015, 05:37:19 PM »

I object.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2015, 08:47:29 AM »

A 48-hours is now open. Please vote.

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bore
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« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2015, 08:58:59 AM »

Nay
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windjammer
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« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2015, 09:00:10 AM »

Nay
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2015, 09:02:01 AM »

Aye - but we should have a principle vote on this.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2015, 03:11:54 PM »

     Nay
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Negusa Nagast 🚀
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« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2015, 03:23:38 PM »

Nay.

We must not allow an individual region to become a de facto theocracy, abridging on individual rights. 
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2015, 04:10:33 PM »

AYE!!!
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2015, 05:30:56 PM »

NAY
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