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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
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Author Topic: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)  (Read 16083 times)
tmthforu94
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« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2015, 06:05:35 pm »

Nay - too many small things that would go wrong if this passed.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2015, 06:23:58 pm »

Nay
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2015, 09:04:49 pm »

Nay.

We must not allow an individual region to become a de facto theocracy, abridging on individual rights. 

No theocratic agenda. It's an agenda on Federalist principals regardless of political ideology.

Nay - too many small things that would go wrong if this passed.

What small things? The pure and simple interpretation is this. The Federal government is forbidden from dictate a uniform policy to the regions regarding marriage, adoption, abortion, euthanasia.

It's restoring powers to the regions that the current constitution unjustly gave to the Federal government. My proposal has the intent of protecting rather than abridging individual rights.

My basis is the United States Constitution itself. One of the greatest problems the game has had since before I joined is that the national government had too much power.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2015, 10:29:53 pm »

You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2015, 12:42:38 am »

You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2015, 12:55:05 am »

You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2015, 10:35:13 am »

NAY
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2015, 02:56:37 pm »

You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.

     I don't mind a confederation, but I believe that defining the powers of the regions is the wrong way to go about it. The regions' powers should merely be all things that the federal government does not cover.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2015, 09:59:52 am »

You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.

It's not an authoritarian confederation. It's much more liberal than you could fathom.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2015, 12:41:18 pm »

The amendment failed.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2015, 06:48:24 pm »

As JCL's amendment was rejected, I would like to resurrect this idea:

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2015, 09:20:12 pm »

As JCL's amendment was rejected, I would like to resurrect this idea:

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.

I'm open to that.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2015, 01:43:56 am »

We have gotten consolidation, we appear to have gotten bicamerialism. Unless we get devolution, this will fail at the regional level when it comes to activity and participation.

What people need to consider with regards to the recently failed JCL amendment, is that some of the most contentious regional issues that attracted most of the attention and interest dealt with social policy. We tend to forget that this is a game and there is desire to kill it wherever it grows with regards to any remotely socially conservative agenda. This happened in 2013 when Gass pushed for amendment to the Constitution that basically outlawed most all restrictions on abortion, in response to the Mideast Abortion statute that passed that year. There were two competative regional elections and a high turnout referendum that ultimately tossed out the said legislation by two votes, and this in a region that at the time was 50% Federalist, and had been dominated by Conservatives for five years.

There is this desire to coddle the regions, to take away any and all responsibility, and I use that word intentionally as opposed to rights or powers. If regions have no responsibilities, their officeholders and the votes cast in elections for such, are pointless endeavors. By leaving important matters in their hands, is how you force competition. If a region passes a statute you don't like, the answer in the best interest of the game is, run for Governor or legislature. Th answer most certainly is not to remove that issue from field by the having the feds make decisions for them, so they don't have too.

Devolution is a must or consolidation is a busted flush.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2015, 01:18:57 pm »
« Edited: November 02, 2015, 03:21:48 pm by Speaker Cris »

Now, 72 hours for delegates to propose a list of powers that should belong to the federal government.

When the 72 hours period expires, I'll open a principle vote and all powers mentioned by a majority of voting delegates will be inserted in the new text of the Constitution.

All other powers (so those not denied to federal government) will be belong to the regional governments. So we'll say "All remaining powers are belong to the regional governments."
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2015, 02:51:33 pm »

Now, 72 hours for delegates to propose a list of powers that should belong to the federal government.

When the 72 hours period expires, I'll open a principle vote and all powers mentioned by a majority of voting delegates will be inserted in the new text of the Constitution. All other powers will be denied to the regional governments, as we'll insert all powers approved by ConCon and then we'll say "All remaining powers are denied to the regional governments."

     Don't you mean denied to the federal government?
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2015, 03:22:46 pm »

Updated it. Sorry for the confusion (I'm not an US citizen Tongue )
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2015, 03:24:22 pm »

So we should propose powers that we want to belong only to the federal government. Powers with a majority of votes will be inserted in the constitution. All other powers will be belong to the regional governments. It's clear?
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2015, 04:36:19 pm »

I propose that the federal government be granted the following powers:

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions
12. To guarantee access to medical care
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
14. To establish the minimum wage
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
17. To establish a central national bank
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

Numbers 1-9 are lifted from the US Constitution; the rest are powers that logically need to be executed at the national level to avoid confusion (ie: financial policy).
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2015, 08:05:39 pm »

My counter proposal

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To make laws regarding borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
12. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
13. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
14. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2015, 08:57:40 pm »

I support JCL's proposal.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2015, 01:59:26 am »

I support JCL's proposal as well.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2015, 05:48:52 am »

My counter proposal

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To make laws regarding borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
12. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
13. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
14. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law
15. To regulate federal elections
Added something about federal elections - not 100% sure it's the best wording though.
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bore
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« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2015, 06:17:54 am »

I support Truman's proposal.

JCL's would lead to a federal government that's larger than ever without the power to actually do anything, which would lead to a lot of thumb twiddling.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2015, 11:48:11 am »

Maybe something like:

"To regulate voter registration and federal elections"?  This is something that it makes sense for Atlasia to have a "national" policy on, given the size of the simulation.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2015, 06:13:41 pm »

I support Truman's proposal.

JCL's would lead to a federal government that's larger than ever without the power to actually do anything, which would lead to a lot of thumb twiddling.

How so?
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