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  Talk Elections
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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
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Author Topic: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)  (Read 23961 times)
MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2015, 02:09:26 am »

Letting the legislatures pick their senators just opens the door to crony politics, and deprives the people of who to they wish to represent their region in the chamber. Moreover, an election game on life support should not be cutting a competitive and engrossing set of elections if it wants to survive.

JCL, leave your bankrupt ideology in the trashbin of history. There is a reason irl America discarded the broken practice of letting state legislatures anoint their senators. It has no place irl or in this game.

Actually, I'm trying to restore a more republican form of democratic governance. Its not a bankrupt point of view. Plus it'll make this assembly seats more important to win. Crony politics are what got us to this point and substantial changes have to be made. Some such changes (consolidation) should not be made.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2015, 02:21:23 am »

I agree with Griffin, each region should get to decide how to elect their Senators.


The Senate's purpose is indeed to represent the region and therefore there is a good argument that can be made when it comes up at the region level to decide who to elect them to opt in fact for the legislatures as an option. It also does help make those elections for Regional Gov't more important. I have long pushed Regionalizing the Regional Senate elections and making it so they were held on the same ballot as Governor and state legislature for the purpose of boosting turnout and interest in those downballot seats and elections.

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Senator Cris
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« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2015, 08:49:00 am »

This proposal is identic at the new Italy reform: an House elected by the people and the Senate elected by regional governments.

It's an interesting idea, no doubts, but I prefer to keep the people electing their Senators. Or we might let regions decide how to elect their Senators, it would mean more powers to regions and I like that.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #178 on: November 10, 2015, 10:52:13 am »

Right; I wouldn't be in favor of telling the regions they must have a legislature in order to elect Senators if we decide to do things that way.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #179 on: November 10, 2015, 11:51:02 am »

Right; I wouldn't be in favor of telling the regions they must have a legislature in order to elect Senators if we decide to do things that way.

     That is also a good point; I have long been a fan of how legislatures were organically adopted by the regions, rather than required of them. We should be giving the regions more say and not less, or what's the point?
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #180 on: November 10, 2015, 11:52:59 am »

The democratic right of the people to choose who governs them at any level must never be discarded.

The clock of democracy can never be turned back to the old days when Senators were chosen by party cliques sitting in a legislature.

What is wrong with letting the people, all eligible voters in Atlasia, or all eligible voters in a region, decide who is to govern them?

The people's right to choose who is to govern  is the most fundamental right of free people everywhere, the right to vote.

Taking the vote away from the people is a horrible idea.  I cannot imagine anyone who genuinely loves democracy ever supporting such an archaic practice as having representatives of the people elected by a legislature clique.  
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #181 on: November 10, 2015, 06:55:48 pm »

In 24 hours time, if there are no objections, I will call a principle vote to determine the manner in which the Senate will be elected. The options in that vote will be:

-Both Classes should be elected by the voters
-Both Classes should be chosen by the Regional legislatures
-Class I should be elected by the voters and Class II should be elected by the Regional legislatures
-Each Region should decide for itself how to elect its senators

Delegates are free to propose other ideas, which will appear on the ballot as well.
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Leinad
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« Reply #182 on: November 11, 2015, 06:03:28 am »

The democratic right of the people to choose who governs them at any level must never be discarded.

The clock of democracy can never be turned back to the old days when Senators were chosen by party cliques sitting in a legislature.

What is wrong with letting the people, all eligible voters in Atlasia, or all eligible voters in a region, decide who is to govern them?

The people's right to choose who is to govern  is the most fundamental right of free people everywhere, the right to vote.

Taking the vote away from the people is a horrible idea.  I cannot imagine anyone who genuinely loves democracy ever supporting such an archaic practice as having representatives of the people elected by a legislature clique.  

I suppose your point does hold some value, but it's no different than letting President's appoint a Cabinet instead of electing them, right? Not saying you're right or wrong, just wondering why there's no criticism from you of that.

And to one of your points, regarding party cliques, I would argue that, in real life especially, popular vote elections are generally won by whatever candidate the media-establishment complex forces down everyone's throats anyway, so I'm not sure where the difference is.

I certainly have reservations about this plan, too, but if it can A) reignite the regions and B) provide meaningful contrast between the two houses, I'm very much open to it. Overall, I like the idea of letting the regions decide. That way we can see which system is the best, by testing them both in action (or seeing all 3 regions independently decide one is better than the other, whichever one works).
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #183 on: November 11, 2015, 05:09:09 pm »

A principle vote is not open on the question of Senatorial elections. Please rank the following options in order of your preference. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.


Proposals

Option A - Both Classes shall be elected by popular vote.
Option B - Both Classes shall be elected by the legislatures of the several Regions.
Option C - Class I shall be elected by popular vote and Class II shall be elected by the Regional legislatures.
Option D - Each Region shall decide for itself how to elect its senators.


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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2015, 05:13:00 pm »

Option C
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2015, 05:36:57 pm »

Option A
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Negusa Nagast 🚀
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« Reply #186 on: November 11, 2015, 10:04:55 pm »

Option A
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #187 on: November 11, 2015, 10:38:42 pm »

Option D
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #188 on: November 11, 2015, 10:53:16 pm »

Option A
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #189 on: November 12, 2015, 12:18:55 am »
« Edited: November 12, 2015, 03:58:25 pm by tmthforu94 »

Folks should probably do STV voting - I don't think we should "pass" a principle vote unless it receives 50%+1 of overall votes.

1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B

#regionalrights I think all regions will likely elect to have a popular vote, but this is another example of the federal government meddling into the region's business. Let them decide!!!!!!
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #190 on: November 12, 2015, 12:35:13 am »

Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[  2 ] Option A
[ 4  ] Option B
[ 3  ] Option C
[ 1  ] Option D
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #191 on: November 12, 2015, 01:03:33 am »

Option A
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Leinad
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« Reply #192 on: November 12, 2015, 02:32:20 am »

1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B

Ditto what Tmth said. While I do think a popular vote would be best, it's a good idea to let the regions decide. What could go wrong if the people of a region decide to make it based on the legislature? We already have another federal house elected via popular vote, and the legislature itself is elected via popular vote as well, so it's not like we're robbing the people of their rights or anything if we do this.

This could be a great opportunity to not only differentiate the two houses, but (much more importantly) reinvigorate the regional legislatures.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #193 on: November 12, 2015, 09:11:50 am »

1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #194 on: November 12, 2015, 09:57:27 am »

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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #195 on: November 12, 2015, 12:23:04 pm »

1. C
2. D
3. B
4. A
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #196 on: November 12, 2015, 12:58:37 pm »

If we are going to let the legislatures elect regional senators or let regions decide how to elect their senators (regions might be able to decide that the legislature shall elect them), we should adress this point: shall legislators select a citizen that's not a legislator or shall legislators be able to select themselves? If yes, regional legislators would be Senators at the same time and, to be honest, I don't think it's a good fit for activity purpose.
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MadmanMotley
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« Reply #197 on: November 12, 2015, 01:09:17 pm »

1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #198 on: November 12, 2015, 03:03:50 pm »

1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #199 on: November 12, 2015, 05:05:22 pm »

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I should note that, as a matter of principle, I do not support empowering the Regional legislatures to elect the Senate. If we want the federal system to be at all meaningful, however, we must give the Regions real responsibilities, and that means creating the possibility that they will make mistakes. If our continual response to vesting more powers in the Regions is, "Oh, not that, that's too important," the Regions will continue to be powerless and people will continue to not give two cents about Regional elections.
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