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  Wiping all current laws. (ADOPTED) (search mode)
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Author Topic: Wiping all current laws. (ADOPTED)  (Read 13992 times)
Associate Justice PiT
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« on: October 09, 2015, 03:29:50 pm »

Delegate Oakvale suggested to wipe all laws approved in the latest years.
Obviously there's nothing in the Constitution about it, but it might be inserted.

of course there is…?

you just don't include viii.1.4 in the new constitution
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     Not including anything would leave the matter open to litigation and whatnot. It would be better to just include amend the clause to say that legislation is not carried over.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2015, 05:23:44 pm »

That is why I said before it would be good if we had some way of constitutionally preventing trivial junk from being introduced into the federal or regional legislatures.
That would be ideal, but I cannot think of any way of doing it that wouldn't be completely subjective.

     Prohibit "suggestion laws" that don't actually accomplish anything (like defining regional symbols)?
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2015, 04:06:23 pm »

These laws can be passed in the new Atlasia.
I understand where you're coming from, but in the interim, we would temporarily be legalizing rape, murder, etc. and allow people to get away with the with no consequences.

     We would most likely just use United States Federal Statute as our base. If you were to check, you would find that Atlasia has never passed a law prohibiting murder; that's because it was already illegal through American law.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2015, 07:13:27 pm »

We need a complete legislative reset I've said this before we've done everything we could've as a nation, we've solved almost every issue.

     It's not just having solved every issue, but even knowing what's been done. The statute is so large now, it's nearly impossible to know everything that's in it. As such, you get laws that overlap incoherently because they were passed without knowing what came before.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2015, 01:08:41 pm »

     I guess the devil's advocate point of view is that people become attached to their accomplishments. Wiping them all out would alienate long-time players who would effectively be left as if they had never existed.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 05:34:26 pm »

     If our concern is having 11 years of statute confuses new players then it is probably even more important to reset at the regional level, where many new players get their start in the game.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 04:40:07 pm »

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     The way to go about this seems pretty straightforward to me. Let's do this.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 02:41:27 pm »

Wait a second, are some people advocating repealing ALL laws? As in, including US laws made before 2004? Forcing us to go through the tedium of making laws for every single thing? Or have I misunderstood the last answer to that last question?

Yes, and I'm frankly surprised to not see more conservatives supporting such a measure. They're basically saying, "yeah - go ahead and give me an automatic liberal base-line from which to start over".

     I like to think we're realistic enough to not want to spend months passing laws to ban murder or set up armed forces. Wink
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2015, 03:18:24 pm »

     It may only be necessary to nullify statute passed by the Senate or by the Regions. The Constitution is customarily replaced when a new one is passed and anything else can stand or fall depending on how much its operation hinges upon nulled law.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 03:17:05 pm »

     Nay
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 06:01:26 pm »

Yeah, I had no idea there was a vote happening until just now since this convention is terribly organized.
As Presiding Officer, I have taken steps to ensure that everyone is on the same page from here on out; nevertheless, the delegates who missed the vote have no-one to blame but themselves for their absence. There are only three threads on this board in which issues are being actively debated: it shouldn't take more than 30 minutes to scan through each of them and vote on proposals as necessary. For reference, the Senate regularly debates up to ten different proposals at a time and most active Regional legislatures have 2-3 bills on the floor. I'm willing to bet that almost everyone here has served in a Regional legislature at some point, so this arrangement should not come as a surprise. Provided you're willing to log in at least once a day, it should not be unreasonable for you to keep up with all that is going on without someone hovering over your shoulder.

My job is to enforce the Rules of Order and to keep debate from getting off track, not to babysit the delegates and make sure they do their jobs. If sending out a PM blast announcing each vote is what is needed to keep everyone from dozing off, I'm happy to do it, but let's not pretend that 17 delegates didn't show up for work because they couldn't figure out which thread they were supposed to click on.

EDIT: Can I move that votes be invalidated without a certain level of turnout from the delegates?
I am uncomfortable with this for a number of reasons. First, there is nothing in the Rules of Order that allows the Convention to establish a quorum, and we would be opening ourselves up for a lawsuit should we choose to do so anyway. Second, this would hypothetically allow a minority of the Convention to block the passage of unfriendly legislation by refusing to vote, which is something I will not allow to happen.

I agree completely with Senator Truman on the first point.  It is up to the delegates to check in to see what is going on and what is being voted on.  If some delegates miss some votes, that's the way it goes.  They can take more care for the next time.

As to the second point, there is no way that the Chair should have the authority to invalidate votes unless a certain level of delegates turn out.  If delegates don't turn out, they don't have a say in the way that particular vote goes.  Invalidating votes would add too much lost time in the entire process.   

     I would also point out that the Northeast once had a similar process for amending its Constitution. It proved a disaster because 50% turnout proved unfeasible and they were locked out of the Constitution for quite some time until they managed to pass an amendment changing it.

     Likewise, the RPP once had such a rule for adopting bylaw changes (I think that's what it was). When DWTL found himself on the losing side of a vote, he and his supporters retaliated by invalidating their ballots in an attempt to stop it from passing.

     Quorums sound like a good idea on paper, but history has borne out that they do not work in the context of Atlasia. Should interest in the Convention continue to worsen, we may soon find ourselves in a position where it is not possible to continue the Convention. I expect that is not the intent of Senator Oakvale's proposal, and that implementation of it would not be productive.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2015, 02:39:20 pm »

     Because we have five regions, either option would require the assent of four of those regions. The fraction here doesn't actually make a difference.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 04:30:18 pm »

     Aye
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Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2015, 01:47:57 pm »

     Aye
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