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  Talk Elections
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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  Wiping all current laws. (ADOPTED)
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Author Topic: Wiping all current laws. (ADOPTED)  (Read 13452 times)
Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2015, 12:18:23 am »

I'm sorry, but it is absolutely pathetic that over 2/3s of delegates didn't vote on this.

Is there a limit on how many votes a delegate can miss before they are kicked out? I'm tackling a plethora of RL issues and am still able to show up to vote.

I agree.

This is ridiculous.

If they don't participate, out they go.  It should be automatic.

And I really cannot understand this convention burdening down future generations of Atlasian lawmakers with the ancient laws of the past.

I had thought that the very least we could have done was to have given the new Atlasia a fresh start, unencumbered by the thousands of laws from ancient history, some good, some bad, some stupid, some pathetic, some that make no sense at all.

But no, we have decided, in our wisdom, to saddle the new Atlasia with this burden.

Way to go. 
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2015, 12:23:03 am »

Nay for the record.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2015, 07:58:25 am »

Abstain for the record.
Sorry for not voting in it.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #103 on: November 21, 2015, 02:50:41 pm »

Possibly the best way to make sure that people vote is the PM delegates when there is a vote. Many of the delegates may have been unaware that there was a vote.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2015, 03:13:01 pm »

Possibly the best way to make sure that people vote is the PM delegates when there is a vote. Many of the delegates may have been unaware that there was a vote.
Thanks Truman for implementing this. Smiley
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2015, 03:18:11 pm »

Possibly the best way to make sure that people vote is the PM delegates when there is a vote. Many of the delegates may have been unaware that there was a vote.
Thanks Truman for implementing this. Smiley

Happy to be of service. Unfortunately, the forum limits me to 20 PMs per hour, so five of us will just have to remember to vote on our own. Wink
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Oakvale
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« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2015, 03:42:35 pm »
« Edited: November 22, 2015, 03:45:25 pm by Sen. Oakvale »

Yeah, I had no idea there was a vote happening until just now since this convention is terribly organised.

We should debate one issue at a time, not have a bunch of simultaneous threads open.

EDIT: Can I move that votes be invalidated without a certain level of turnout from the delegates?
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2015, 04:30:06 pm »

Yeah, I had no idea there was a vote happening until just now since this convention is terribly organized.
As Presiding Officer, I have taken steps to ensure that everyone is on the same page from here on out; nevertheless, the delegates who missed the vote have no-one to blame but themselves for their absence. There are only three threads on this board in which issues are being actively debated: it shouldn't take more than 30 minutes to scan through each of them and vote on proposals as necessary. For reference, the Senate regularly debates up to ten different proposals at a time and most active Regional legislatures have 2-3 bills on the floor. I'm willing to bet that almost everyone here has served in a Regional legislature at some point, so this arrangement should not come as a surprise. Provided you're willing to log in at least once a day, it should not be unreasonable for you to keep up with all that is going on without someone hovering over your shoulder.

My job is to enforce the Rules of Order and to keep debate from getting off track, not to babysit the delegates and make sure they do their jobs. If sending out a PM blast announcing each vote is what is needed to keep everyone from dozing off, I'm happy to do it, but let's not pretend that 17 delegates didn't show up for work because they couldn't figure out which thread they were supposed to click on.

EDIT: Can I move that votes be invalidated without a certain level of turnout from the delegates?
I am uncomfortable with this for a number of reasons. First, there is nothing in the Rules of Order that allows the Convention to establish a quorum, and we would be opening ourselves up for a lawsuit should we choose to do so anyway. Second, this would hypothetically allow a minority of the Convention to block the passage of unfriendly legislation by refusing to vote, which is something I will not allow to happen.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2015, 10:59:21 pm »

Yeah, I had no idea there was a vote happening until just now since this convention is terribly organized.
As Presiding Officer, I have taken steps to ensure that everyone is on the same page from here on out; nevertheless, the delegates who missed the vote have no-one to blame but themselves for their absence. There are only three threads on this board in which issues are being actively debated: it shouldn't take more than 30 minutes to scan through each of them and vote on proposals as necessary. For reference, the Senate regularly debates up to ten different proposals at a time and most active Regional legislatures have 2-3 bills on the floor. I'm willing to bet that almost everyone here has served in a Regional legislature at some point, so this arrangement should not come as a surprise. Provided you're willing to log in at least once a day, it should not be unreasonable for you to keep up with all that is going on without someone hovering over your shoulder.

My job is to enforce the Rules of Order and to keep debate from getting off track, not to babysit the delegates and make sure they do their jobs. If sending out a PM blast announcing each vote is what is needed to keep everyone from dozing off, I'm happy to do it, but let's not pretend that 17 delegates didn't show up for work because they couldn't figure out which thread they were supposed to click on.

EDIT: Can I move that votes be invalidated without a certain level of turnout from the delegates?
I am uncomfortable with this for a number of reasons. First, there is nothing in the Rules of Order that allows the Convention to establish a quorum, and we would be opening ourselves up for a lawsuit should we choose to do so anyway. Second, this would hypothetically allow a minority of the Convention to block the passage of unfriendly legislation by refusing to vote, which is something I will not allow to happen.

I agree completely with Senator Truman on the first point.  It is up to the delegates to check in to see what is going on and what is being voted on.  If some delegates miss some votes, that's the way it goes.  They can take more care for the next time.

As to the second point, there is no way that the Chair should have the authority to invalidate votes unless a certain level of delegates turn out.  If delegates don't turn out, they don't have a say in the way that particular vote goes.  Invalidating votes would add too much lost time in the entire process.   
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2015, 06:01:26 pm »

Yeah, I had no idea there was a vote happening until just now since this convention is terribly organized.
As Presiding Officer, I have taken steps to ensure that everyone is on the same page from here on out; nevertheless, the delegates who missed the vote have no-one to blame but themselves for their absence. There are only three threads on this board in which issues are being actively debated: it shouldn't take more than 30 minutes to scan through each of them and vote on proposals as necessary. For reference, the Senate regularly debates up to ten different proposals at a time and most active Regional legislatures have 2-3 bills on the floor. I'm willing to bet that almost everyone here has served in a Regional legislature at some point, so this arrangement should not come as a surprise. Provided you're willing to log in at least once a day, it should not be unreasonable for you to keep up with all that is going on without someone hovering over your shoulder.

My job is to enforce the Rules of Order and to keep debate from getting off track, not to babysit the delegates and make sure they do their jobs. If sending out a PM blast announcing each vote is what is needed to keep everyone from dozing off, I'm happy to do it, but let's not pretend that 17 delegates didn't show up for work because they couldn't figure out which thread they were supposed to click on.

EDIT: Can I move that votes be invalidated without a certain level of turnout from the delegates?
I am uncomfortable with this for a number of reasons. First, there is nothing in the Rules of Order that allows the Convention to establish a quorum, and we would be opening ourselves up for a lawsuit should we choose to do so anyway. Second, this would hypothetically allow a minority of the Convention to block the passage of unfriendly legislation by refusing to vote, which is something I will not allow to happen.

I agree completely with Senator Truman on the first point.  It is up to the delegates to check in to see what is going on and what is being voted on.  If some delegates miss some votes, that's the way it goes.  They can take more care for the next time.

As to the second point, there is no way that the Chair should have the authority to invalidate votes unless a certain level of delegates turn out.  If delegates don't turn out, they don't have a say in the way that particular vote goes.  Invalidating votes would add too much lost time in the entire process.   

     I would also point out that the Northeast once had a similar process for amending its Constitution. It proved a disaster because 50% turnout proved unfeasible and they were locked out of the Constitution for quite some time until they managed to pass an amendment changing it.

     Likewise, the RPP once had such a rule for adopting bylaw changes (I think that's what it was). When DWTL found himself on the losing side of a vote, he and his supporters retaliated by invalidating their ballots in an attempt to stop it from passing.

     Quorums sound like a good idea on paper, but history has borne out that they do not work in the context of Atlasia. Should interest in the Convention continue to worsen, we may soon find ourselves in a position where it is not possible to continue the Convention. I expect that is not the intent of Senator Oakvale's proposal, and that implementation of it would not be productive.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2015, 08:19:16 pm »

I'm in the process of drafting a new amendment, and this is what I have so far re: implementation (keep in mind that this is a rough draft, not an official amendment):

1. Once the Constitution has been ratified, the Pres. appoints a SoFE to administer the election of a new Pres., VP, and HoR.
2. The SoFE also administers the election of Regional "Transitional Committees"
3. Committees organize election of new Senate, write Regional Constitutions

I'm unsure where the legislative reboot should go in all of this. Part of me thinks it should happen immediately after ratification, but that creates a troublesome period where there is no official power that can administer the election of the new government. The other part of me thinks that the reboot should happen after the above transition, but that creates a whole new set of problems, namely: how do existing election laws figure into the election of the new gov't?

Thoughts?
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Leinad
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« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2015, 06:34:12 am »

Yeah, I totally agree with how Truman's handled it. Sending out PMs is a great way to help, but it's our faults if we miss votes. Also, I agree that a quorum wouldn't work.

Regarding the Senator's amendment, I'd say to do it after the transition, so that we can start off Atlasia: The Next Generation with everything fully functioning, instead of trying to tie our shoes while we're still putting our pants on.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #112 on: November 25, 2015, 04:50:57 pm »

I've found the PMs very helpful.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2015, 01:15:19 pm »

Based on the recommendations of the Convention, I hereby offer the following amendment. Delegates have 24 hours to object.

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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2015, 03:31:41 pm »

Object I think 2/3's is right 3/4 is a little too steep
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2015, 05:00:44 pm »

Object I think 2/3's is right 3/4 is a little too steep
The thing is, we don't have a choice in the matter: the current Constitution requires that any replacement be approved by 3/4 of the Regions.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2015, 11:52:22 pm »

Object I think 2/3's is right 3/4 is a little too steep
The thing is, we don't have a choice in the matter: the current Constitution requires that any replacement be approved by 3/4 of the Regions.

Exactly, and as I said on the previous page trying to pull a US style situation and violate the previous process, would open the door to challenges that could wreck the whole process.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2015, 02:39:20 pm »

     Because we have five regions, either option would require the assent of four of those regions. The fraction here doesn't actually make a difference.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2015, 06:42:39 pm »

     Because we have five regions, either option would require the assent of four of those regions. The fraction here doesn't actually make a difference.
Aren't we reducing to three though? This would mean that 3/4 would require all three regions to approve - whereas 2/3 would require only two.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #119 on: November 28, 2015, 10:14:34 pm »

    Because we have five regions, either option would require the assent of four of those regions. The fraction here doesn't actually make a difference.
Aren't we reducing to three though? This would mean that 3/4 would require all three regions to approve - whereas 2/3 would require only two.
Consolidation is being enacted as part of the new Constitution; as such, the Three Region Map won't go into effect until after ratification.

A vote is now open on Truman's Amendment. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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Biden/Abrams Voter
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« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2015, 10:21:28 pm »

Aye
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2015, 10:23:39 pm »

AYE!
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VPH
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« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2015, 11:51:08 pm »

Aye
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Clark Kent
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« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2015, 11:59:59 pm »

AYE
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2015, 12:10:36 am »

Aye
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