Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Indiana shouldn't go with the Northeast section.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

My fellow conservatives may think I'm a little off my rocker for this but there is precedence for the right of secession. Atlasia itself was and is the greatest secession movement because the mother country from which we came (the United Kingdom) denied us representation in her parliament while demanding that we pay taxes. The Declaration of Independence is a secessionist document

Just take in this paragraph for example

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.



Our very convention is assembled to alter our constitution to reform our nation and protect the liberties we all hold dear. While I agree with you that secession from a free and democratic nation to form another one is irrational, the right of self governance and autonomy is a right we all hold dear. Look at the brave people of Catalonia who want to break away from Spain. The region pays 20 percent of the total revenue that goes to Madrid while only receiving 14 back. Given Spain's history of dictatorships shouldn't Catalonia's bid for independence be given serious consideration. Given our recent unrest and failed coup by TNF, I think giving our 5 regions greater autonomy would be a good idea.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Abstain. Leinad's amendment is the middle ground. I don't oppose the amendment in question but the president/senate shouldn't have veto power on this subject.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

I completely oppose any and all attempts to make secession any easier.


As for JCL's concern, Atlasian/American independence was not really secession, as the Thirteen Colonies were just that, colonies, and not actually an integral part of Britain itself. It's a different situation where different rules apply. In general, I am always opposed to secession.

That's not how the British parliament thought. Even though they denied the colonists the right of being represented in their own body. Thus was a cause for revolution.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Yes, we've voted on this issue enough. Whoever is leading this motley crew needs to bar anymore voting on the issue. It's just killing the efficiency of this convention. Like a lawsuit, you shouldn't be able to bring the same case over and over and over until you win it. That's why preclusion exists.  

Now, if we want to discuss making this a confederacy (minus the racism) where regions are autonomous and receive nothing from the federal government, I'm all ears.

Kind of like a national night watch state of sorts. Except in foreign policy matters of course.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Yay on Leinad's amendment. With Truman's suggestions added would be better.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Aye under Tmth or Leinad's amendments.

The right of self government must be respected even by national level governments.

Spain take note and let Catalonia peacefully go.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

No to Indiana being put in the Northeast. We're closer to the South culturally.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

1. Five Regions
2. Four Regions

Having anything less is absolutely not logical.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Honestly, I don't think that proposal will prove stable in the long term. It is based on the assumption that the Northeast will continue to account for the vast majority of activity long into perpetuity, which is highly unlikely. Furthermore, putting Washington in the same Region as South Carolina makes absolutely no sense: the two have nothing in common geographically, culturally, or historically.

Or putting Indiana in with New York as Indiana has nothing in common geographically or culturally. I hereby object to any and all maps that put Indiana in a Northeastern region. It's disappointing that this body rejected maintaining 5 regions.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Honestly, I don't think that proposal will prove stable in the long term. It is based on the assumption that the Northeast will continue to account for the vast majority of activity long into perpetuity, which is highly unlikely. Furthermore, putting Washington in the same Region as South Carolina makes absolutely no sense: the two have nothing in common geographically, culturally, or historically.

Or putting Indiana in with New York as Indiana has nothing in common geographically or culturally. I hereby object to any and all maps that put Indiana in a Northeastern region. It's disappointing that this body rejected maintaining 5 regions.

Indiana and New York are both Northern states that fought for the Union during the Civil War, border the Great Lakes, have sizable German-American communities, and were once home to the Algonquian Indian culture. The two states are, by far, a much better fit than Washington and South Carolina.

But also many Hoosiers had sympathy with the South during the Civil War. My own (Anglo/German/Native American) family included.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay,

Indiana with the Northeast doesn't fly with me one bit. My apologies to Senator Truman, however right you may be on some of the historical aspects we discussed earlier (sizable German-Amarican populations etc,) look at the reality that if you visit most towns south of Rochester, (Bloomington and Indianapolis as the possible exceptions) it's like you're in the south.

The biggest reason I am firmly against consolidation, besides protecting the cultural distinctiveness of my home state, I believe this will stifle new voices that will come with ideas that many here will not dare consider because of the years many of us have played the game.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Aye, and so help me God, I will c**nt-punt anybody else who tries to move states around on this.

Aye but I may propose another map.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I object to Trumans amendment.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I do not believe that the regions should be allowed to name their own region.

Nor do I believe that the regions should have any authority to change the name of their region.

The Atlasian constitution should set the boundaries of the regions and the names of the regions, so they are set, and cannot be changed.

Otherwise we end up with ridiculous names like the Imperial Dominion of the South, the Dirty South, the Althing, etc, etc, etc, or whatever.

As well, the Atlasian constitution should lay out the names of the officers of the regions.  All regions should have a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, an Assembly, members of the Assemblies shall all be known as Representatives.

That way we avoid ridiculous titles such as Emperor or Grand Vizier, King in the North, or whatever.

We have to set standards and make them permanent.

Why shouldn't the regions get to decide that? The federal government shouldn't be as trusted either.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay, 2/3 vote is fine.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I do agree with North as being superior to Northeast. However, I must insist that the the right of the regions to change their names be preserved.

Agreed on both accounts. It's silly to call Wisconsin and Illinois the "Northeast," but it's even sillier to keep these regions from changing their names.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

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[MyRescueKittehRocks]

we should also allow for a process for the restoration to 5 regions while we are at it.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

we should also allow for a process for the restoration to 5 regions while we are at it.

There is a process for that - a constitutional amendment.

Since we're in a Constitutional Convention I figure we should put the framework in so we could if future situations merit.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Aye

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Option 1: Nay
Option 2: Nay

3/4 is too high a threshold and invalidating such a vote violates our democratic processes.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

Both ClassicConservative and NeverAgain make great points.