Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Aye
What's the point in having a country if you're just letting regions leave whenever they get angry? Preserve the union.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

OK, individuals should have the right to leave a country if they wish, sure, but I guess my argument is taking land with them. It's fine to leave a country out of protest, but taking your house and forming your own country using land of another is a bit much. People can have the right to leave but the federal government should have the right to enforce the union.

Otherwise, why have a federal government? Just make a confederation of states that all have their own autonomy and be done with it.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Well, under certain circumstances succession does spark activity. I did that when I first joined Atlasia in 2008.

But it's never a long term thing. Eventually the region returns or is forced to. If people want a confederation where regions basically govern themselves then that's fine, push for that. But combining the current system with free succession doesn't make sense to me. If the Feds have no teeth there's little point in having Feds at all if region X can just leave without any issue for not liking the federal abortion law or being against same sex marriage, etc.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

No no, we must drag this out as long as possible.

Again I will say, there's literally no point in having a federal government if we are making succession legal. Do we want to have the confederation of Atlasia regions?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow succession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

    Aye

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow secession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

     FWIW, I would be down to form a confederated state.

Then propose it. I'm tired of wasting time voting on amendment after amendment dealibg with secession. I'm not sure if it's a tactic used by its supporters to just derail the convention, but it's a waste of time. If we plan to have an actual constitution with an actual government, then having some soft provision allowing regions to just up and leave should their leaders decide they want to do it is just insane. By that point, there's no reason to have a government.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

This is going to go nowhere if we're going to be voting on secession for the next few weeks.

I've never heard of a country having some "process" in place for a region or state or territory to seceed. Is this some new kind of phenomanon? Or are we just wanting to turn this into a confederation? Or is this just trolling?

Secession has always been part of Atlasia, but it was used as a way to raise awareness and increase activity, not to just quietly vote to leave. Then no one would care. What happens once a region leaves? They start their own little Atlasia? I don't understand.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Yes, we've voted on this issue enough. Whoever is leading this motley crew needs to bar anymore voting on the issue. It's just killing the efficiency of this convention. Like a lawsuit, you shouldn't be able to bring the same case over and over and over until you win it. That's why preclusion exists.  

Now, if we want to discuss making this a confederacy (minus the racism) where regions are autonomous and receive nothing from the federal government, I'm all ears.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay. No further comment

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay on Leinads amendment

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Can someone just answer me this: what country in this world with a valid, enforceable constitution has a provision allowing an entire region to seceed by popular vote? Or one that has a provision allowing secession at all?

I ask this because this idea goes against the basic purpose of a constitution. If a region can leave without ramifications whenever they disagree with something, I see no point in having a federal constitution at all. Nor a country for that matter.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Yes, because I respect the will of the people and don't want a legal mess on our hands in the future.

What on earth? It's not illegal for secession to be outlawed in a government constitution. It's the law of the land, you see.

Finally, no one is forcing a certain person to live in this country. They can leave. But Atlasia won't be a functioning country if we're just going to allow regions to leave whenever they want. A nation is all about sovereignty and enforcing its borders. Allowing secession entirely nullifies that.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

This entire thing has gotten out of hand. So now having a government is contrary to human rights?

If men were angels....then maybe it wouldn't be necessary. And I've spoken for The People all my life in Atlasia. I won't let anyone start trying to define what They want. They've never been one to give up, one to call for division rather than unity, one to pick up their toys and walk away when things aren't as they please. That's all this amendment encourages. Don't agree, then leave! You can do it without any penalty! But that's never been what The People stand for. The People are fighters. They fight to change the government with pitch forks, love and comradery, not through an orderly vote for secession. That would be a boring way out.

Secession and the like has a place in this game but no place in the constitution. Otherwise, secession loses its teeth. Who cares if someone leaves if it's legal? How do they make a point? I don't understand the supporters except that it's purely ideology and not practical. I do appreciate Leiland at least being candid about that fact.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I move to establish a 3 region map using the map that was most preferred by a popular vote a few months ago. It makes the most sense and is aesthetically pleasing to my eye and it should be to yours too.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Wonderful, so we embed secession in the constitution.

This convention has failed in its most important task, preserving a united Atlasia, both for this generation of Atlasians, and for generations of Atlasians yet unborn.

At this point perhaps we should think about making Atlasia a confederacy without centralized power. The scary thing is, I bet a majority would support that. It's like they're trying to kill Atlasia off by making it useless to participate in. Who saw that coming?

But yes, let's not consider a two region system. 3 is the way to go. It's a no brainier, although I can see us dropping the ball yet again.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Wonderful, so we embed secession in the constitution.

This convention has failed in its most important task, preserving a united Atlasia, both for this generation of Atlasians, and for generations of Atlasians yet unborn.

At this point perhaps we should think about making Atlasia a confederacy without centralized power. The scary thing is, I bet a majority would support that. It's like they're trying to kill Atlasia off by making it useless to participate in. Who saw that coming?

But yes, let's not consider a two region system. 3 is the way to go. It's a no brainier, although I can see us dropping the ball yet again.

Yes, I thought this constitutional convention was supposed to save Atlasia, not give secessionists and malcontents a vehicle by which to legally pursue independence every two weeks.   

Kind of makes the rest of this almost pointless, no? Why have a constitution that no region really needs to abide by.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

1. 3
2. 5
3. 0
4. 2
5. 4

No point in referencing 1 region. May as well make it 0.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Did anyone post the popularly selected one from a few months ago? I think that's our best choice going forward.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

If we insist on naming the regions after historical figures, why not pick Atlasian ones rather than ones from the fictional entity of "America"?  The first three presidents were Nym, Gustaf, and John F. Kennedy.  Demrepdan was the author of the First Constitution.  We also have one late Atlas Forum member, Cheesewhiz, who was active in Atlasia for some time.

I like this idea FTR

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

The committee was formed for a reason. Please let's not waste time on debating the map. I don't care if someone individually disagrees with it. We can't all get what we want. The map produced by the committee is the Will of The People and it should be the one we chose.

I find it ironic that some people who used The People to justify their support for secession are now going against Their choice in maps because they personally disagree with it. Yes, I can be sassy too.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Aye

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

The CARCA was a massive undertaking and debate. If someone didn't feel the need to participate in it that is their own choice. It's not fair to simply dismiss it now because someone wasn't a participant in it. It's bigger than one or two people.

I'm open to listening to minor changes like moving Minnesota to the Midwest or something like that, because I do agree it's not a northern state, but the CARCA exists so this process would be streamlined, not hung up for weeks debating where each state should go. We'll never finish this convention if we start doing that.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm fine moving Kansas so long as this doesn't open the floodgates for everyone and their brother to request to move their state.

Kansas is much more southern than northern or coastal elitist.