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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Gustaf, Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee)
  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 39421 times)
bore
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« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2015, 05:30:08 am »

Aye
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2015, 11:06:52 am »

Nay

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2015, 11:30:30 am »

I think what we're dealing with here is an honest difference of opinion as to what constitutes the "consent of the governed." As I see it, when someone registers to be a citizen of Atlasia (which is a voluntary act, unlike being born in, say, South Sudan), they are agreeing to obey the laws of the nation. Every game has rules, and Atlasia exists to simulate the politics of a federal republic. If you'd rather have a Region-centered confederation, that's fine: I just happen to disagree.

I will note, however, that secession has historically been incompatible with strong national governments, and history is riven with examples of countries that have collapsed as a result of successful separatist movements. The Holy Roman Empire, the Federal Republic of Central America, the United Arab Republic, and potentially the E.U. as well only a few examples of political unions that collapsed due to their inability to prevent secession.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2015, 01:44:32 pm »

Nay
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2015, 01:54:13 pm »

I think what we're dealing with here is an honest difference of opinion as to what constitutes the "consent of the governed." As I see it, when someone registers to be a citizen of Atlasia (which is a voluntary act, unlike being born in, say, South Sudan), they are agreeing to obey the laws of the nation. Every game has rules, and Atlasia exists to simulate the politics of a federal republic. If you'd rather have a Region-centered confederation, that's fine: I just happen to disagree.

I will note, however, that secession has historically been incompatible with strong national governments, and history is riven with examples of countries that have collapsed as a result of successful separatist movements. The Holy Roman Empire, the Federal Republic of Central America, the United Arab Republic, and potentially the E.U. as well only a few examples of political unions that collapsed due to their inability to prevent secession.

     The voluntary act note is a critical difference in how people view the game. Exegetically, it is altogether voluntary; people simply come to exist in Atlasia when they register and likewise cease to exist when they deregister. Diegetically, Atlasia is a country like any other, and there is citizenship beyond just registering to vote in Atlas Fantasy Elections.

     While it may seem like a minor point, whether you approach the citizenship question exegetically or diegetically completely changes the nature of the question, and changes how citizens of Atlasia must relate to the government and to the Republic itself. There are fine arguments either way, but this is something we should consider when it leads to impasses like this one.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2015, 01:55:47 pm »

     Also,

Aye, precisely on evergreen's reasoning.

     I change my vote to aye in agreement with this.
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VPH
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« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2015, 03:51:38 pm »

Aye
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2015, 08:11:11 pm »

I strongly urge the ConCon to support the President's reasonable plan and opt for 2 regions!!!
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Biden/Abrams Voter
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« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2015, 08:33:10 pm »

Abstain
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #159 on: October 15, 2015, 08:03:07 am »

NAY: 10
AYE: 7
ABSTAIN: 4

The amendment has failed to pass.

Now, it's time for Oakvale's amendment;

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Delegates have 24 hours to object.
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rpryor03
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« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2015, 08:32:02 am »

I object to Oakvale's amendment.
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2015, 09:00:50 am »

Would it just be easier to vote on all of the amendments - rather than waiting for the inevitable objections? It would speed things up.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2015, 09:19:30 am »

No no, we must drag this out as long as possible.

Again I will say, there's literally no point in having a federal government if we are making succession legal. Do we want to have the confederation of Atlasia regions?
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2015, 09:35:19 am »

A 48-hours vote on Oakvale's amendment is now open. Please vote.

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Clyde1998
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« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2015, 09:38:43 am »

Aye
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #165 on: October 15, 2015, 09:41:53 am »

Nay

What's the point of having a game like Atlasia if we are letting secession?
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #166 on: October 15, 2015, 09:49:47 am »

Nay
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #167 on: October 15, 2015, 11:06:51 am »

Aye
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2015, 12:02:18 pm »

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow succession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2015, 04:00:52 pm »

     Aye

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow succession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

     FWIW, I would be down to form a confederated state.
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MadmanMotley
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« Reply #170 on: October 15, 2015, 04:21:09 pm »

Aye
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Grand Inquisitor Lumine
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« Reply #171 on: October 15, 2015, 04:29:43 pm »

Nay.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #172 on: October 15, 2015, 04:41:12 pm »

NAY, for the reasons Duke explained.

Likewise, this debate has gone on far too long and is taking up an inordinate amount of this Convention's time. Secession is an important issue, but there is no reason that we need to spend two weeks debating it. We've argued the issue to death by this point: I say we consider the outcome of this vote final and move on, whatever that outcome may be.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #173 on: October 15, 2015, 05:03:12 pm »
« Edited: October 15, 2015, 05:05:14 pm by Duke »

    Aye

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow secession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

     FWIW, I would be down to form a confederated state.

Then propose it. I'm tired of wasting time voting on amendment after amendment dealibg with secession. I'm not sure if it's a tactic used by its supporters to just derail the convention, but it's a waste of time. If we plan to have an actual constitution with an actual government, then having some soft provision allowing regions to just up and leave should their leaders decide they want to do it is just insane. By that point, there's no reason to have a government.
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #174 on: October 15, 2015, 05:11:59 pm »

Abstain.
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