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  Talk Elections
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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 40728 times)
bore
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« Reply #650 on: December 28, 2015, 03:00:10 pm »

It's bad enough giving the regions carte blanche authority to rename their regions with stupid and ridiculous names, but giving them authority to rename their states with even more stupid names is one of the most ridiculous amendments I have ever seen proposed in my life here on this forum.

Will this madness never end?

     It's also been the law of the land for over a decade with no real downsides. A major factor in the health and strength of the regions is allowing them to have unique cultures determined by those living there. Stifling that doesn't help.

The law of the land allows regions to rename states but still mandates that the use of the real names be accepted as well for registering people and legislation and so on. I agree with winfield that if that changes there will be serious problems.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #651 on: December 28, 2015, 03:19:46 pm »

It's bad enough giving the regions carte blanche authority to rename their regions with stupid and ridiculous names, but giving them authority to rename their states with even more stupid names is one of the most ridiculous amendments I have ever seen proposed in my life here on this forum.

Will this madness never end?

     It's also been the law of the land for over a decade with no real downsides. A major factor in the health and strength of the regions is allowing them to have unique cultures determined by those living there. Stifling that doesn't help.

The law of the land allows regions to rename states but still mandates that the use of the real names be accepted as well for registering people and legislation and so on. I agree with winfield that if that changes there will be serious problems.
This. Allowing the Regions to propose alternate state names for internal purposes is one thing, but mandating that these names totally supplant real life names would create needless confusion, especially if said names are too greatly creative or if the Regions get into a habit of changing them frequently. Not only would this create confusion in the registration process, it could well become a problem in the Statute as well as time goes by. Legislation referring to the State of Frankfurter, for example, will become nearly unreadable if three years later Frankfurter is renamed the People's Republic of Cheese Cake (Who is going to keep track of the name changes and amend the Statue accordingly? We have enough trouble keeping it up to date as it is).

On this particular issue, I think it's best to abide by the status quo. The Regions can still propose the silly names if they want (rejecting this amendment won't change that), and if those names become a longstanding part of Atlasian culture, Congress can vote to recognize them alongside real life names. Allowing the Regions to unilaterally replace the real life names of their constituent states, however, opens the door for a great deal of confusion and chaos that outstrips the novelty benefit of this provision.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #652 on: December 28, 2015, 06:41:09 pm »

It's bad enough giving the regions carte blanche authority to rename their regions with stupid and ridiculous names, but giving them authority to rename their states with even more stupid names is one of the most ridiculous amendments I have ever seen proposed in my life here on this forum.

Will this madness never end?

     It's also been the law of the land for over a decade with no real downsides. A major factor in the health and strength of the regions is allowing them to have unique cultures determined by those living there. Stifling that doesn't help.

The law of the land allows regions to rename states but still mandates that the use of the real names be accepted as well for registering people and legislation and so on. I agree with winfield that if that changes there will be serious problems.

     Good point, that thought had not occurred to me. I am also concerned about the flipside; would this block the regions from recognizing alternate state names? I am supposing yes, though I do not have the time to look  too far into this now.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #653 on: December 28, 2015, 07:08:01 pm »

It's bad enough giving the regions carte blanche authority to rename their regions with stupid and ridiculous names, but giving them authority to rename their states with even more stupid names is one of the most ridiculous amendments I have ever seen proposed in my life here on this forum.

Will this madness never end?

     It's also been the law of the land for over a decade with no real downsides. A major factor in the health and strength of the regions is allowing them to have unique cultures determined by those living there. Stifling that doesn't help.

The law of the land allows regions to rename states but still mandates that the use of the real names be accepted as well for registering people and legislation and so on. I agree with winfield that if that changes there will be serious problems.

     Good point, that thought had not occurred to me. I am also concerned about the flipside; would this block the regions from recognizing alternate state names? I am supposing yes, though I do not have the time to look  too far into this now.

Presumably, the Regions would be free to adopt/recognize alternate names for their constituent states without this amendment, seeing as the Midwest has been doing so for years without any official Constitutional provision protecting that right. Unless we were to adopt a clause explicitly outlawing the use of alternate state names, it is hard to imagine an attempt to end this practice gaining much traction in the Supreme Court. With that in mind, the only effect rejecting this amendment will have is to absolve the federal government of the responsibility to recognize said alternate names in place of the real life names of the states (by my reading, Nyman would remain able to recognize the alternate names alongside real life names).
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #654 on: December 29, 2015, 09:20:35 am »

I'm entirely fine with allowing the old names to be used for official purposes, voter registration, and so on, so as to make newbies' transition to Atlasia simpler; however, although the Most Serene Republic does have names that it prefers over the antiquated ones of the past, the Atlasian government has repeatedly and frequently refused to acknowledge our preferred names, which this amendment is seeking to redress.  Here's updated language for section v that I hope will rectify peoples' concerns:

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #655 on: December 29, 2015, 06:37:55 pm »

I object to Ilikeverin's amendment. While I don't begrudge the Regions the right to propose alternate names for their constituent states, I do not believe that the federal government should be obliged to recognize those names.

In any event, I feel that this is an issue best settled by ordinary legislation: as it is, we're coming dangerously close to an overly legalistic Constitution such as we have now. The purpose of the Constitution should be to establish a basic framework for the game; all other questions (state names, titles of legislative officers, etc.) should be settled through the legislative process. That way, if mistakes are made, they can be easily fixed by an Act of Congress without need for a formal Constitutional Amendment.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #656 on: December 30, 2015, 01:22:38 pm »

I as well object to ilikeverin's amendment.

If we are going to grant the regions the right to rename their regions and their constituent states with stupid and ridiculous names, then there is no way that this ludicrousness should be recognized and ratified by Atlasia as official.

This will only cause mass confusion.     
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #657 on: January 01, 2016, 05:56:07 pm »

A vote is now open on the amendment proposed by Ilikeverin. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #658 on: January 01, 2016, 06:06:32 pm »
« Edited: January 01, 2016, 06:29:05 pm by Senator Truman »

NAY.

My own opinion of this measure aside, this is not an issue that should be addressed in the Constitution. The purpose of a constitution should be to provide a framework - a lattice, if you will - upon which the game can grow and prosper. It should not attempt to anticipate every political question that will confront this Republic, nor should it seek to carve every tradition and cultural custom in stone. Apart from basic political liberties and the structure of the national government, most matters of state should be left to the elected representatives of the national government. The failure of past generations to recognize this is what brought us to this point, and I urge my fellow delegates not to repeat their mistakes by attempting to answer every question in our charter of government.
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Clark Kent
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« Reply #659 on: January 01, 2016, 06:15:23 pm »

NAY
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #660 on: January 01, 2016, 06:22:43 pm »

Aye
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VPH
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« Reply #661 on: January 01, 2016, 06:41:32 pm »

AYE
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Classic Conservative
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« Reply #662 on: January 01, 2016, 06:46:15 pm »

NAY

  New players will never be able to know all the names, I don't even know what the states in the Midwest are. It'll be too confusing and will result in Constitutional Amendments with the Regional Constitution regularly.
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #663 on: January 01, 2016, 07:44:28 pm »

Nay. States should be allowed to make their own names, but not be forced to be acknowledged by the Federal Government.
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Leinad
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« Reply #664 on: January 02, 2016, 01:52:58 am »

NAY

Basically this:

States should be allowed to make their own names, but not be forced to be acknowledged by the Federal Government.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #665 on: January 02, 2016, 02:00:55 pm »

     Nay
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #666 on: January 02, 2016, 03:17:32 pm »

Nay

This amendment leads down only one highway, the highway of mass confusion.
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MadmanMotley
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« Reply #667 on: January 02, 2016, 03:43:05 pm »

Nay
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #668 on: January 02, 2016, 03:55:17 pm »

Nay

I feel that it will become too confusing for new players. I have nothing against the states being renamed in principle, although there should be no requirement for the Federal Government to recognise the changes.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #669 on: January 02, 2016, 05:13:02 pm »

NAY

Basically this:

States should be allowed to make their own names, but not be forced to be acknowledged by the Federal Government.
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Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN
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« Reply #670 on: January 02, 2016, 06:02:39 pm »

NAY
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Pack the Court & Lock Him Up
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« Reply #671 on: January 02, 2016, 09:03:45 pm »

Aye
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #672 on: January 02, 2016, 11:50:44 pm »

Aye
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Prince of Salem
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« Reply #673 on: January 03, 2016, 02:07:56 am »

Abstain
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #674 on: January 04, 2016, 03:44:03 pm »

Nay

Both ClassicConservative and NeverAgain make great points.
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