Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[Chief Justice windjammer]

Leinad:

Well, you can say as well that not all the people voted for the election of the delegates. The CARCA represented every people that wanted to participate: DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

My argument makes complete sense - it amazes me how time and time again, individuals at this convention are trying to rush things through and stifle debate.

Your argument is the one that doesn't make sense - comparing this to a presidential election is like comparing apples to oranges.

I have a question for you, Windjammer, and others who are opposed to any changes because of CARCA: Was CARCA binding?

Sometimes it can be useful to compare apples and oranges by the way, and your argument still doesn't make no sense. CARCA was made in order to speed the process, not my fault if you chose to leave the game.

What an undemocratic way to look at things! "Oh, you weren't registered in the game when we talked about maps, so you can't have an opinion." Once again, if CARCA were binding, you would be absolutely correct. But it isn't. It was a group of random people, not determined by any legal document, who came up with a suggestion.

This is democratic: I have the right to believe the CARCA map should be adopted because it was chosen by the convention. I

It would be appreciated if you started acting a little more respectful. Some people are trying to have a mature conversation!

[Oakvale]

NAY.

[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

NAY.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

and yet you didn't join the process (presumably because the Federalists were lynching people right and left for daring to support consolidation),

Bullsh**t!!!


Tmth was overwhelmingly elected as Party Chairman in December 2013 as an aknowledged supporter of Consolidation, to replace another pro-Consolidation Chairman, Maxwell. Duke was nominated in October 2013, running as a pro-Consolidation independent with a Federalist VP, who also supported consolidation.

Of the three Federalist Senators, only one voted against the final FTR amendment, and that was after said single Federalist Nay exerted much effort to assist in structuring a workable process. This same Nay voter than expedited the process to bring the FTR back up after three lame-ass Senators you elected went AWOL and caused it to fail the first time. Of course you weren't here for that because you had pussed out like a err deregistered.

The  opposition that killed it at the ratification booth came to ahead in January 2014, by which time Duke had been damaged amongst Conservatives from the perception he was too compromising with TNF. I would also remind you that the first, albeit abortive, challenger to Duke, was pro-consolidation Maxwell.

Consolidation did divide the Party, but there was no effort to lynch pro-consolidation people because they were pro-consolidation and it was certainly not an overwhelming factor whilst CARCA 2013 was underway. It did get lumped onto many unfair critiques that was leveled at Duke and helped to fuel the Reaganfan challenge, in early 2014, not in 2013.

Once again your take on these events is clouded by the simple fact, that, as we painfully learned this summer, there is no substitute for being there.

All of that occurred after CARCA and after Hagrid more or less had stopped influencing the process by proxy. I was informed by pro-consolidation Federalists during that time that they were facing pressure not to be involved. In addition, I'm sure Federalist Independent President Duke can elaborate on just how much criticism (including a primary challenge) he faced over being pro-consolidation, but he can put it in his own words if he wishes!

I will say I think Yankee's memory of what happened was a bit more rosy than what actually occurred

I was basically told I needed to soften/abandon my consolidation rhetoric or I would lose the primary to Reaganfan, and Maxwell had to do the same before he launched his primary challenge against me. Neither of us were really able to run on pro-consolidation because it was so toxic that the party would elect a troll as their candidate over anyone remotely serious. They didn't like that I held hands with TNF and flirted with the Labor Party all during my presidency from across the bar, I was famously told that if I didn't blanket VETO every TNF/Labor bill, I shouldn't be in office. That was great advice!

The consolidation debate is part of what pushed me to coming within a few minutes of switching to the Labor Party, I was so close I had written a speech announcing the switch which I still have somewhere on my computer, but at the end I decided to stay loyal mainly to Yankee and run with the Federalists because I'm a good friend and I don't abandon those who support me.

[Biden/Abrams Voter]

and yet you didn't join the process (presumably because the Federalists were lynching people right and left for daring to support consolidation),

Bullsh**t!!!


Tmth was overwhelmingly elected as Party Chairman in December 2013 as an aknowledged supporter of Consolidation, to replace another pro-Consolidation Chairman, Maxwell. Duke was nominated in October 2013, running as a pro-Consolidation independent with a Federalist VP, who also supported consolidation.

Of the three Federalist Senators, only one voted against the final FTR amendment, and that was after said single Federalist Nay exerted much effort to assist in structuring a workable process. This same Nay voter than expedited the process to bring the FTR back up after three lame-ass Senators you elected went AWOL and caused it to fail the first time. Of course you weren't here for that because you had pussed out like a err deregistered.

The  opposition that killed it at the ratification booth came to ahead in January 2014, by which time Duke had been damaged amongst Conservatives from the perception he was too compromising with TNF. I would also remind you that the first, albeit abortive, challenger to Duke, was pro-consolidation Maxwell.

Consolidation did divide the Party, but there was no effort to lynch pro-consolidation people because they were pro-consolidation and it was certainly not an overwhelming factor whilst CARCA 2013 was underway. It did get lumped onto many unfair critiques that was leveled at Duke and helped to fuel the Reaganfan challenge, in early 2014, not in 2013.

Once again your take on these events is clouded by the simple fact, that, as we painfully learned this summer, there is no substitute for being there.

All of that occurred after CARCA and after Hagrid more or less had stopped influencing the process by proxy. I was informed by pro-consolidation Federalists during that time that they were facing pressure not to be involved. In addition, I'm sure Federalist Independent President Duke can elaborate on just how much criticism (including a primary challenge) he faced over being pro-consolidation, but he can put it in his own words if he wishes!

I will say I think Yankee's memory of what happened was a bit more rosy than what actually occurred

I was basically told I needed to soften/abandon my consolidation rhetoric or I would lose the primary to Reaganfan, and Maxwell had to do the same before he launched his primary challenge against me. Neither of us were really able to run on pro-consolidation because it was so toxic that the party would elect a troll as their candidate over anyone remotely serious. They didn't like that I held hands with TNF and flirted with the Labor Party all during my presidency from across the bar, I was famously told that if I didn't blanket VETO every TNF/Labor bill, I shouldn't be in office. That was great advice!

The consolidation debate is part of what pushed me to coming within a few minutes of switching to the Labor Party, I was so close I had written a speech announcing the switch which I still have somewhere on my computer, but at the end I decided to stay loyal mainly to Yankee and run with the Federalists because I'm a good friend and I don't abandon those who support me.

Well, in all fairness to Hagrid, he was trying to give his party's nomination to troll tickets long before you (and even before consolidation!).

[VPH]

Aye if I haven't voted already on this amendment (kinda confused)

[Clyde1998]

I can't remember if I've voted on this or not - Nay if I haven't

[Senator Cris]

The amendment passed.

[Senator Cris]

Now, it's time for Griffin's amendment. Delegates have 24 hours to object.

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Visual representation (Oceania not pictured)

[Senator Cris]

I object.

I don't think we need Canada provincies and a few Central American states. I'm fully supporting the 50 states map + DC and PR.
If we keep Canada provincies and add these new states, a lot of them will be inhabited. Having these provinces/states will not bring any benefit to Atlasia.

[tmthforu94]

Griffin, you may have already posted this argument somewhere, but what is the rationale for this amendment? I specifically have concerns with adding some of the Central American states. Shouldn't we be respecting their sovereignty?

[Clark Kent]

I like Griffin's amendment. I don't think adding Canada would be a bad thing at all.

[Clyde1998]

I also object.

We already have lots of states that are uninhabited already - so adding new 'jurisdictions' to the game would leave more uninhabited. I feel 50 states + DC + PR is enough.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't really see the point in adding more playable areas. The best argument for adding Canada was that Canadians could register where they live; my question is did any Canadians actually care? I'm pretty sure that there aren't any posters from the Caribbean to take advantage of those areas being added.

[Lincoln Republican]

Personally, I am not in favor of having anything outside the United States.

The U.S. plus Puerto Rico should suffice.

[Classic Conservative]

I also object I don't like this at all.

[Senator Cris]

A 48-hours vote on this amendment is now open. Please vote.

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Visual representation (Oceania not pictured)

[Classic Conservative]

NAY

[Lincoln Republican]

Nay

[Oakvale]

Nay.

[Chief Justice windjammer]

Abstain.

I don't care about this issues.

[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

NAY

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Abstain

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

[Biden/Abrams Voter]

Griffin, you may have already posted this argument somewhere, but what is the rationale for this amendment? I specifically have concerns with adding some of the Central American states. Shouldn't we be respecting their sovereignty?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I object.

I don't think we need Canada provincies and a few Central American states. I'm fully supporting the 50 states map + DC and PR.
If we keep Canada provincies and add these new states, a lot of them will be inhabited. Having these provinces/states will not bring any benefit to Atlasia.

I also object.

We already have lots of states that are uninhabited already - so adding new 'jurisdictions' to the game would leave more uninhabited. I feel 50 states + DC + PR is enough.

If uninhabited states is for some reason a huge concern, then we better go ahead and cede 5-10 US states to the Mexicans or whomever as well. It has no tangible negative impact on gameplay and I am confident that I am the only person in the game who could somewhat name off of the top of his head which states are currently uninhabited in the first place.

     I don't really see the point in adding more playable areas. The best argument for adding Canada was that Canadians could register where they live; my question is did any Canadians actually care? I'm pretty sure that there aren't any posters from the Caribbean to take advantage of those areas being added.

The best argument at the time behind the actual motivation was to add more playable areas and choice to the game in order to allow more people to live wherever they decided. Ultimately, anywhere from 5-10% of the game's population resided in Canada at any given point. Again, I'm just baffled at the amount of resistance there is to adding perfectly playable land to this new game when there are literally no tangible negative repercussions in doing so. "Oh no, empty space" - and what if there is? There always has been, except for that one time that somebody actually took the initiative to fully fill each state with people. I'm clueless as to why everybody is suddenly upset about it now.