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  Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)
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Author Topic: Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)  (Read 39592 times)
MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #375 on: October 28, 2015, 07:02:14 pm »

Nay,

Indiana with the Northeast doesn't fly with me one bit. My apologies to Senator Truman, however right you may be on some of the historical aspects we discussed earlier (sizable German-Amarican populations etc,) look at the reality that if you visit most towns south of Rochester, (Bloomington and Indianapolis as the possible exceptions) it's like you're in the south.

The biggest reason I am firmly against consolidation, besides protecting the cultural distinctiveness of my home state, I believe this will stifle new voices that will come with ideas that many here will not dare consider because of the years many of us have played the game.

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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #376 on: October 28, 2015, 09:04:46 pm »

Can someone explain which amendments we're voting on? I thought I voted on Truman's amendment but it seems there are two amendments and because we've been going back and forth for pages over individual states, I can't track down what the hell else we're voting on right now.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #377 on: October 28, 2015, 09:11:28 pm »

If we put Kansas into the South, then MN/IA are going to have to go in the western region. We risk de-populating the western region in natural terms by too much. I think that things will even out to a degree in terms of population if a legislative seat regulation remains in the provision, but we can't imbalance them naturally by too much.

When you take MN, IA & KS out of the western region, it is left with 28 people currently (out of 144). That's less than 20% of the game.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #378 on: October 28, 2015, 09:13:48 pm »

because historically, Minnesota and Iowa have been more closely aligned with the culture and politics of Wisconsin than of the Dakotas.

No; in Atlasian history, Minnesota and Iowa have been more closely aligned with the rest of the Midwestern region, both culturally and politically.

I'm not sure why the CARCA is being considered a reliable source of information about what Atlasians would prefer out of a three-region system.  Presumably, the only people who participated were people in support of regional consolidation; those of us who opposed regional consolidation had no reason to support a process whose end goal was something we disagreed with.

Well, that was a major misjudgment on your part, now wasn't it? The process was open to everyone and the bulk of active people in 2013 and in 2015 participated, with roughly 30 people in total competing. It is a certainly a better reflection and reliable source of information about what Atlasians would prefer than anything else anybody else can offer at this point.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #379 on: October 28, 2015, 09:34:56 pm »

Can someone explain which amendments we're voting on? I thought I voted on Truman's amendment but it seems there are two amendments and because we've been going back and forth for pages over individual states, I can't track down what the hell else we're voting on right now.

We're still voting on my amendment.

If we put Kansas into the South, then MN/IA are going to have to go in the western region. We risk de-populating the western region in natural terms by too much. I think that things will even out to a degree in terms of population if a legislative seat regulation remains in the provision, but we can't imbalance them naturally by too much.

When you take MN, IA & KS out of the western region, it is left with 28 people currently (out of 144). That's less than 20% of the game.

I'm okay with putting KS in the South and MN and IA in the West. Both are sensible changes with concrete arguments behind them, so if that's what it takes to get a majority on board, I'm all for it.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #380 on: October 28, 2015, 09:57:08 pm »

It's hard to tell with all the competing proposals flying around, but I think these are the suggestions that have been made in regards to the Regional map:

1. Adopt CARCA as is (Truman)
2. Adopt CARCA, but move MN and IA from the North to the West (Leinad)
3. Adopt CARCA, but move KS to the South (Tmth)
4. Adopt a new map that puts Indiana in the South (JCL)
5. Adopt a new map divided into Eastern, Central, and Western Regions (Bmotley)

If my amendment fails, I suggest we hold a "CARCA Redux" in which every delegate can propose a map and the Convention selects one via STV. Obviously, the principle vote to adopt a 3-Region map would still be binding, so any proposals that have more or less than 3 Regions would be discarded.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #381 on: October 29, 2015, 02:40:58 pm »

If my amendment fails, I suggest we hold a "CARCA Redux" in which every delegate can propose a map and the Convention selects one via STV. Obviously, the principle vote to adopt a 3-Region map would still be binding, so any proposals that have more or less than 3 Regions would be discarded.

     It would take time to hold such a vote, but I think it would be worth it. There is just too much confusion about the map right now and we need to get back on the same page.
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #382 on: October 29, 2015, 02:52:30 pm »

The Truman's amendment has been adopted.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #383 on: October 29, 2015, 02:53:53 pm »

Motion to end the debates on the adopted map.

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Senator Cris
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« Reply #384 on: October 29, 2015, 02:54:08 pm »

Now, it's time for Tmthforu's amendment. Delegates have 24 hours to object.

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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #385 on: October 29, 2015, 03:22:05 pm »

Nay
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Senator Cris
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« Reply #386 on: October 29, 2015, 03:27:10 pm »

I assume you are objecting to it, right?

Motion to end the debates on the adopted map.


It's not provided by ConCon rules.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #387 on: October 29, 2015, 03:43:24 pm »

I'm objecting.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #388 on: October 29, 2015, 04:26:27 pm »
« Edited: October 29, 2015, 04:46:43 pm by All In For The Royals »

There are two changes here:
1. I don't like the idea of numbering the regions - I think it sends somewhat of a message that one region is being put over another. This is a concern I raised before but was not addressed, so if someone comes up with a  strong argument why "first, second,third" is better than how I worded it, I'll entertain it.
2. Moving Kansas to the South. I understand that there is a desire to try and keep the number of regions balanced, but 1)I don't think it looks better or difference on the prettiness scale, which a lot of people are going off of, and 2) most importantly, considering the population centers and economics of each state, it would be terrible to separate Kansas from Oklahoma and Missouri. I understand that Kansas is generally considered a part of the "Great Plains", which includes the Dakotas and Nebraska, but we are MUCH close to Missouri and Oklahoma in reality. Kansas has historically had low populations of registered Atlasians and with re-registering likely taking place, doing this won't have any sort of negative effect on the game. It just makes more sense economically, and I hope folks will understand that. This puts the South ahead 18-16-16, rather than 17-17-16, so ultimately they remain pretty even. I wish I had been involved more in CARCA and I would have pointed this out then - I know it is something I've mentioned before.

Now, the only argument I've heard on this is from Griffin, who doesn't want to make the population in the Pacific smaller. I would remind everyone that to my knowledge, we have two folks in the state of Kansas, I'm the only one who is there because of geographic reasons, and I haven't lived here forever. Considering the likelihood of folks moving around with a consolidation of regions (most people in this game don't live in here where they live IRL), I would encourage individuals to dismiss that argument for THIS amendment.

Additionally, I have heard from several delegates that they are opposing this SIMPLY because it wasn't part of the CARCA map. For the record, I was not a member of Atlasia during that discussion, other delegates weren't involved either. It is unfair to shut myself and others out of the process for being part of a non-binding debate and decision several months ago.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #389 on: October 29, 2015, 04:55:44 pm »

I'm fine moving Kansas so long as this doesn't open the floodgates for everyone and their brother to request to move their state.

Kansas is much more southern than northern or coastal elitist.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #390 on: October 29, 2015, 05:03:20 pm »

I'm fine moving Kansas so long as this doesn't open the floodgates for everyone and their brother to request to move their state.

Kansas is much more southern than northern or coastal elitist.
If you agree to adopt a change, then we will have to consider all the other changes because that would be unfair to the others, don't you think.

The CARCA was adopted less than 2 months ago. Maybe you did have good reasons for leaving this game and I hope nothing wrong happened to you tmthforu, but I don't want to reopen the debates about the map. CARCA's goal was to speed the process. If we start hearing all the potential changes, the constitutional convention will last too much time.

And your argument doesn't make sense. That would be like restarting a presidential election everytime a new user registers because that would be unfair to him by not doing that, because he wouldn't have been involved in the process.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #391 on: October 29, 2015, 06:11:59 pm »

My argument makes complete sense - it amazes me how time and time again, individuals at this convention are trying to rush things through and stifle debate.

Your argument is the one that doesn't make sense - comparing this to a presidential election is like comparing apples to oranges.

I have a question for you, Windjammer, and others who are opposed to any changes because of CARCA: Was CARCA binding?
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #392 on: October 29, 2015, 07:11:01 pm »

As I have said previously, I have no problem with putting Kansas in the South. I also think the grammatical changes made (removing "first," "second," and "third") are a good idea, and as such I will support this amendment.
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Lincoln Republican
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« Reply #393 on: October 29, 2015, 10:15:04 pm »

I will support the amendment with the following provision:

iii.  ..........and shall be styled "Jefferson."  "Rayburn."

Jefferson was a slave holder.

Also, we should make for provision for Minnesota and Iowa to be moved to the west region if this is the consensus. 
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #394 on: October 30, 2015, 12:24:31 am »

I withdrew my amendment for the time being with the expectation of another amendment being introduced that will alleviate my concerns.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #395 on: October 30, 2015, 12:45:16 am »

I offer the following amendment:

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Honestly, I think this is a good compromise. With KS in the South and MN/IA in the West, we end up with an attractive, balanced map that still reflects the bulk of the CARCA proposal. I also replaced "first," "second," and "third" with "Northern," "Southern," and "Western," so as to avoid 'ranking' the Regions and changed the name of the Southern Region to Rayburn, which removes any seeming endorsement of slavery. It may not be exactly what the CARCA hardliners wanted, but it's a good map that we should all be able to get on board with.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #396 on: October 30, 2015, 12:54:41 am »

I am fine with the map and removing the numbering system, but I prefer the regions be able to select their own names.
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #397 on: October 30, 2015, 01:07:25 am »

I think we should give the Western Region a name that is more appropriate for its founding and culture. Perhaps "CortÚs"? Also, the Southern name could be a lot better. Alexander Hamilton was from the West Indies...that's Southern enough, right? Cheesy
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Biden/Abrams Voter
Adam Griffin
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« Reply #398 on: October 30, 2015, 01:13:51 am »

Honestly I think we should just name the regions "Hamilton", "Griffin" and "Wolfen" since they represent three historic Atlasian figures and all have the same ending sound; none of the other historic figures knew how to pick proper names so they get excluded.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #399 on: October 30, 2015, 07:35:27 am »

My argument makes complete sense - it amazes me how time and time again, individuals at this convention are trying to rush things through and stifle debate.

Your argument is the one that doesn't make sense - comparing this to a presidential election is like comparing apples to oranges.

I have a question for you, Windjammer, and others who are opposed to any changes because of CARCA: Was CARCA binding?
Sometimes it can be useful to compare apples and oranges by the way, and your argument still doesn't make no sense. CARCA was made in order to speed the process, not my fault if you chose to leave the game.

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