Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

No to Indiana being put in the Northeast. We're closer to the South culturally.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would urge my fellow delegates not to get too tied up over which state goes in what Region. Ultimately, such debates are unimportant and only distract from the main issue: the necessity of Regional consolidation. The map adopted by the 2nd CARCA is an aesthetically pleasing, historically congruent proposal that has the support of a majority of active Atlasians. There is no need to spend another three weeks debating different maps when we already have a perfectly acceptable option on the table.

[VPH]

I urge the existence of 4 regions.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I urge the existence of 4 regions.

     The geography of Atlasia does lend itself rather naturally to four regions. Especially if one abandons the notion of equal states in each region, which wasn't even actually followed once we introduced Puerto Rico and Oceania to the mixed.

[tmthforu94]

I urge the existence of 4 regions.

     The geography of Atlasia does lend itself rather naturally to four regions. Especially if one abandons the notion of equal states in each region, which wasn't even actually followed once we introduced Puerto Rico and Oceania to the mixed.

Simply playing devils advocate, I don't think it is necessary that every region has an equal number of states - including D.C., this map has between 12-14 states in each region and looks aesthetically pleasing. It also, for the most part, keeps each state in a region most identifiable to its people.

[MadmanMotley]

I urge the existence of 4 regions.

     The geography of Atlasia does lend itself rather naturally to four regions. Especially if one abandons the notion of equal states in each region, which wasn't even actually followed once we introduced Puerto Rico and Oceania to the mixed.

Simply playing devils advocate, I don't think it is necessary that every region has an equal number of states - including D.C., this map has between 12-14 states in each region and looks aesthetically pleasing. It also, for the most part, keeps each state in a region most identifiable to its people.

I really like this map here.

[NeverAgain]

I urge the existence of 4 regions.

     The geography of Atlasia does lend itself rather naturally to four regions. Especially if one abandons the notion of equal states in each region, which wasn't even actually followed once we introduced Puerto Rico and Oceania to the mixed.

Simply playing devils advocate, I don't think it is necessary that every region has an equal number of states - including D.C., this map has between 12-14 states in each region and looks aesthetically pleasing. It also, for the most part, keeps each state in a region most identifiable to its people.

I really like this map here.

[Senator Cris]

Now, it's time for a STV (so preference order) principle vote that will last for the next 48 hours. Delegates, please vote!

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[ilikeverin]

Friends,

*hughughug*

I come before you today on a matter of grave importance.  I come before you worried about the future of Atlasia.  Never in my 11 years in Atlasia have I seen so many important decisions rushed to completion.  Now we are asked, in the next 48 hours, to take a vote on an issue of utmost importance.  I stand before you asking you to vote for five regions, or to vote for none.

In the past year or so, a coterie of opinionated Atlasians has managed to influence public opinion in this country.  They promise a quick fix.  All will be right in Atlasia, they say, if we just pare down the number of regions.  Kill the Midwest on the sacrificial altar, and the destruction of its beating heart will allow our nation prosperity.

But, I ask you: why?  What purpose does this serve?  They tell us that the regions are dying, and they tell us that it is because these regions are unsustainable in population.  They are "too small".  But, as the oldest continuously-registered Atlasian, I tell you today that this is false.  I have been involved in Midwestern politics since the very start.  I was Atlasia's first elected governor.  My region has always been proud, but small.  It has sometimes been the least active region, but sometimes the most - in fact, it was both during my many stints as Governor.  It was active not despite its size, but sometimes because of it.  Having a small region allowed us to communicate much more effectively. The idea that the size of a region determines its activity is, quite simply, wrong.

What do we gain, then, by decreasing the number of regions to a value like four, three, or two?  Nothing.  We simply lose a critical part of Atlasia's history, all for the sake of packing more people into a frame of government that actively conspires against making Atlasia a more interesting place.

The problem with the regions is not the number of people in them.  The problem with the regions is that, as currently formulated, they serve no purpose.  What is the point of the regional governments as they are currently designed?  In the past, they were seen as gateways to national service.  But since when have we evaluated candidates in this country based on their past peformance in office, rather than their policy positions?  We have seen Presidents with a wide, wide range of experience before they have come into the Presidency.  Do we really care about past experience?  Do you really need to have worked your way up through the ranks to be a good Atlasian officeholder?

Nay, but I go further: regions, as they currently are, are injurious to Atlasia as a whole.  For they silo activity into separate quadrants (well,  pentants?).  I, as a Midwesterner, have essentially been without a competent government for quite some time (although I appreciate the efforts of governor tmth recently for setting that at least partially right, although we obviously disagree quite sharply on the idea of abolishing regional governments).  I hear rumors that the Northeast is contemplating secession(? back in my day, that was the Southeast), that the Pacific might be a mess or something... I haven't the faintest clue what is occurring in the Mideast or the Southeast, to be quite honest.  But what is the point of me paying any attention to the governments that aren't mine?  I cannot influence their policies.  I gain nothing from trying to do so, or trying to stay informed at all.

Let us say that a brilliant white knight rides in to the State of Mirth tomorrow and leads the Midwest into a boom period.  For the first time in a long time, we have interesting policy debates, competitive elections, and citizens who are motivated to contribute as a result of his contributions.  What would that mean to the average citizen of Ohio?  California?  Puerto Rico?  Nothing, nothing, and nothing.

To my mind, there are two solutions to this dilemma.  The first is to vote for zero regions.  Doing so would eliminate this sclerotic part of Atlasia's history.  Yes, yes, of course: we would lose an important part of our history.  I agree.  I would miss the Midwest.  You would miss some other region, I'm sure.  But, unlike what reducing the number of regions would do, this would not be the sacrifice of one to the detriment of all.  This would liberate Atlasia from the shackles of a failed regional system.  It would destroy the silos of the regions.  All would be free to contribute to Atlasia in a way that improves the nation as a whole, rather than a group of states.  We could contemplate bicameralism.  We could certainly have more competitive elections, featuring a national roster of candidates.  We could forge a new nation, and one that returns to the historical roots of our country: elections, not government.

The second is to vote for five, but only if we then do something unexpected: abolish the federal government.  I laid out the problems for regions as they are.  But what about regions as they could be?  Imagine an Atlasia full of foreign policy, as each region is forced to make treaties, alliances, or war with the others.  Imagine an Atlasia with immigrants, not just re-registrants.  Imagine an Atlasia where your state of registration actually matters.  This is an Atlasia without the federal government.  Regions would gain new life because they would be the life of Atlasia.

I ask that you take these comments into guidance, friends, and tell me: do you want to throw the Mideast into the bog in the hopes of appeasing angry Woden?  Will putting more passengers into fewer staterooms on a sinking Titanic really fix things?  Or should we embark on a new journey for Atlasia, in the hopes that we find somewhere ultimately more fulfilling and more useful?

Thank you for your time.  May Dave *hughughug* Atlasia.

[ilikeverin]

I vote:

[1] 5
[2] 0
[3] 4
[4] 3
[5] 2
[6] 1 (wtf)

[rpryor03]

[5] 0
[5] 1
[2] 2
[1] 3
[3] 4
[4] 5

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

1. 3
2. 5
3. 0
4. 2
5. 4

No point in referencing 1 region. May as well make it 0.

[tmthforu94]

[5] 0
[6] 1
[3] 2
[1] 3
[2] 4
[4] 5

[Clyde1998]

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Isn't 0 and 1 the same thing in practice...?

[Grand Inquisitor Lumine]

[2] 0
[6] 1
[5] 2
[1] 3
[3] 4
[4] 5

[Lincoln Republican]

1.  3 regions  (first preference)
2.  4 regions  (second preference)
3.  2  regions (third preference)
4.  5  regions (fourth preference)
5.  0  regions (fifth preference)
6.  1  region  (sixth preference)

[Associate Justice PiT]

1. 5
2. 4
3. 3
4. 0
5. 2

[Classic Conservative]

How many regions there should be?

[1] 3
[2] 4

[NeverAgain]

[1] 3
[2] 4
[3] 5
[4] 2
[5] 0
[6] 1

[MadmanMotley]

[1] 4
[2] 3
[3] 5
[4] 2
[6] 0
[6] 1

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

[1] Three Regions
[2] Two Regions
[3] Four Regions

Having one Region is perhaps the most ridiculous idea I've heard in all my time in Atlasia.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

1. Five Regions
2. Four Regions

Having anything less is absolutely not logical.

[Leinad]

[1] 3 regions
[2] 4 regions
[3] 5 regions
[4] 2 regions

I think there's a place for regions in the game. Eliminating regions, or the federal government, would be a terrible mistake. The two-tiered system is a good thing--it needs to be reformed, sure, but that's what a Constitutional Convention is for!

However, I think there are too many seats for the level of activity. How do I know this? Not a single person declared for candidacy to the South legislature last election. We needed to elect people via write-in, and none of them have sworn in yet (not that I haven't reminded them to).

There are two ways to fix this general problem: increase the number of active players (which is hard), or decrease the number of seats. Surely this isn't a false premise, but rather basic math! And while there are multiple ways to decrease seats, decreasing the number of regions is the easiest way, as much as it has the regrettable unintended consequence of zapping history in the game (then again, we're already doing that intentionally via wiping all laws). It's something that I think we have to do to help sustain the New Atlasia.

That 4-region map above simply won't work--does anyone think that West region will have as much activity as that Northeast region? I know that the regions fluctuate in size--but starting it on such unequal footing is just ridiculous. That's why I'm against putting Minnesota and Iowa in the same region as the Northeast, as it is in the CARCA map, even though it's currently in the same region as most of that CARCA map's west region!

Also, I'm not sure if a 4-region map is such a great idea anyway. I think that all of the downsides of altering the system we've had for over a decade, longer than most of us have been here, are still felt in a 4-region system as much as a 3-region one (unless it's nothing more than merging the Pacific and Midwest--an interesting idea). And at the same time, I'm not sure if the upsides of cutting it to 3 are preserved--it's only half the decrease in regions. Not to mention, forget bicameralism completely if we do this--that would only work in a 3-region system if even then.

And as I said regarding 2 regions--if cutting it to 3 can't save us, I doubt 2 will.

(P.S. I am not a malcontent, not a jokester (well, I am, but not in every sense), not really a secessionist, and if anyone thinks I'm trying to kill Atlasia off, that's about as far from my intentions as calling Richard Dawkins an Evangelical Christian. Also, of course we're going to put restrictions on this. We're not going to let anyone leave with anything other than a supermajority from the people of that region--even I would oppose a less strict plan. Don't be silly.)

[Senator Cris]

1. 3 regions
2. 4 regions
3. 2 regions

[Chief Justice windjammer]

1) 3 regions
2) 2 regions
3) 4 regions
4) 5 regions