Number of Regions/Regional Governments (DEBATE CLOSED)

[bore]

Aye

[Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN]

Nay

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I think what we're dealing with here is an honest difference of opinion as to what constitutes the "consent of the governed." As I see it, when someone registers to be a citizen of Atlasia (which is a voluntary act, unlike being born in, say, South Sudan), they are agreeing to obey the laws of the nation. Every game has rules, and Atlasia exists to simulate the politics of a federal republic. If you'd rather have a Region-centered confederation, that's fine: I just happen to disagree.

I will note, however, that secession has historically been incompatible with strong national governments, and history is riven with examples of countries that have collapsed as a result of successful separatist movements. The Holy Roman Empire, the Federal Republic of Central America, the United Arab Republic, and potentially the E.U. as well only a few examples of political unions that collapsed due to their inability to prevent secession.

[Senator Cris]

Nay

[Associate Justice PiT]

I think what we're dealing with here is an honest difference of opinion as to what constitutes the "consent of the governed." As I see it, when someone registers to be a citizen of Atlasia (which is a voluntary act, unlike being born in, say, South Sudan), they are agreeing to obey the laws of the nation. Every game has rules, and Atlasia exists to simulate the politics of a federal republic. If you'd rather have a Region-centered confederation, that's fine: I just happen to disagree.

I will note, however, that secession has historically been incompatible with strong national governments, and history is riven with examples of countries that have collapsed as a result of successful separatist movements. The Holy Roman Empire, the Federal Republic of Central America, the United Arab Republic, and potentially the E.U. as well only a few examples of political unions that collapsed due to their inability to prevent secession.

     The voluntary act note is a critical difference in how people view the game. Exegetically, it is altogether voluntary; people simply come to exist in Atlasia when they register and likewise cease to exist when they deregister. Diegetically, Atlasia is a country like any other, and there is citizenship beyond just registering to vote in Atlas Fantasy Elections.

     While it may seem like a minor point, whether you approach the citizenship question exegetically or diegetically completely changes the nature of the question, and changes how citizens of Atlasia must relate to the government and to the Republic itself. There are fine arguments either way, but this is something we should consider when it leads to impasses like this one.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Also,

Aye, precisely on evergreen's reasoning.

     I change my vote to aye in agreement with this.

[VPH]

Aye

[Talleyrand]

I strongly urge the ConCon to support the President's reasonable plan and opt for 2 regions!!!

[Where We Griff 1 We Griff All]

Abstain

[Senator Cris]

NAY: 10
AYE: 7
ABSTAIN: 4

The amendment has failed to pass.

Now, it's time for Oakvale's amendment;

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Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[rpryor03]

I object to Oakvale's amendment.

[Clyde1998]

Would it just be easier to vote on all of the amendments - rather than waiting for the inevitable objections? It would speed things up.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

No no, we must drag this out as long as possible.

Again I will say, there's literally no point in having a federal government if we are making succession legal. Do we want to have the confederation of Atlasia regions?

[Senator Cris]

A 48-hours vote on Oakvale's amendment is now open. Please vote.

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[Clyde1998]

Aye

[Senator Cris]

Nay

What's the point of having a game like Atlasia if we are letting secession?

[Lincoln Republican]

Nay

[tmthforu94]

Aye

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow succession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Aye

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow succession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

     FWIW, I would be down to form a confederated state.

[MadmanMotley]

Aye

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

NAY, for the reasons Duke explained.

Likewise, this debate has gone on far too long and is taking up an inordinate amount of this Convention's time. Secession is an important issue, but there is no reason that we need to spend two weeks debating it. We've argued the issue to death by this point: I say we consider the outcome of this vote final and move on, whatever that outcome may be.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

    Aye

Nay

Again, no point in having a federal government if we are going to just allow secession. I'll only support this if we shift focus off of actually forming a government to just creating an articles of confederation where the federal government has no real power. the government will have no means to enforce anything if a region can just leave whenever they wish and the Feds have no power to stop it or reclaim their land.

     FWIW, I would be down to form a confederated state.

Then propose it. I'm tired of wasting time voting on amendment after amendment dealibg with secession. I'm not sure if it's a tactic used by its supporters to just derail the convention, but it's a waste of time. If we plan to have an actual constitution with an actual government, then having some soft provision allowing regions to just up and leave should their leaders decide they want to do it is just insane. By that point, there's no reason to have a government.

[NeverAgain]

Abstain.