Marital rape

[nclib]

Option 1 for me!

As wrong as it is to rape a stranger, it is even more wrong to violate someone who has trusted you as a partner.

It is outrageous that, as of July 2003, N.C.'s laws banned consensual sodomy, cohabitation, and adultery, but the horrific practice of marital rape was (and still is) perfectly legal.

[Cashcow]

What the hell? It's still rape...

[A18]

No / no

[Alcon]

I still would love to see where in the marriage vows it allows sex at any time.

Yes/Yes. It's rape.

[Cashcow]

No / no

Let's get married so I can tie you up and rape you whenever I want, sweetie pie.

Yeah, I actually do that to him from time to time

[A18]

N.C.'s laws banned consensual sodomy, cohabitation, and adultery, but the horrific practice of marital rape was perfectly legal.

I oppose the laws against consensual sodomy and cohabitation. Adultery is obviously contract breaking. Martial rape is a non-issue.

[Gabu]

Yes/Yes.

Getting married does not mean that you can now do illegal things to your spouse.

[Alcon]

No / no

Let's get married so I can tie you up and rape you whenever I want, sweetie pie.

Yeah, I actually do that to him from time to time

You're certainly in quite an interesting state of mind tonight aren't you?

[Ebowed]

Yes / Yes.  Anyone who thinks it's not immoral is not right in the head.

[dazzleman]

Here's the problem with rape in a situation that is not black-and-white.  Rape is the only crime I can think of where the act itself is not a crime, but the determination of criminality rests totally on the consent of one of the parties to the act.

There is no such thing as consenting to being robbed, or shot.  So rape is a fundamentally different type of crime, unless there are signs of other physical violence.

The issue becomes even muddier when the two parties are in a relationship, such as marriage, that implies sexual availablility.  For the same reason, reported rapes in situations where the man and woman know each other well, or the woman voluntarily put herself in the man's private company in a situation where a reasonable person would conclude the sex is probable, are also problematic in terms of obtaining convictions.

I understand that marriage does not imply that a person wants sex at any given time, and that a person shouldn't be forced to have sex.  But I don't think there's a real viable legal solution to marital rape.  Unless there are other signs of physical violence, a jury is going to find it very difficult to convict a man of rape solely on the say-so of his wife claiming he raped her.  Practically speaking, it's a very difficult thing to sell. 

There is also the huge problem of false accusations, which the feminists refuse to acknowledge.  False accusations of rape and sexual harassment are very common, as some women figure out that they can manipulate the system to get something that they want, and effectively blackmail a man.  Being a man yourself, you ought to be wise to this danger.

I find it strange that a man is so committed to an anti-male feminist slant on things.  While I don't agree with rape, there are other ways to look at the problem than just the feminist angle.  Since the feminist angle has not proven to be particularly effective, maybe we should look at other alternatives.

[Alcon]

I find it strange that a man is so committed to an anti-male feminist slant on things.  While I don't agree with rape, there are other ways to look at the problem than just the feminist angle.  Since the feminist angle has not proven to be particularly effective, maybe we should look at other alternatives.

I'm afraid I don't find this a feminist issue as you do - I find it an issue of someone's right to not be hurt.

Rape is not just a psychological thing - it is not about sex, it is about physical domination. It is vicious. It's not as if rapists generally are gentle about it. Rape is generally sexual assault - it hurts the person being raped, and is really the equivilant to assault, which is exactly why it's hard to consent to it.

Some people may find being hurt sexually exciting, but for the most part, it's as clear-cut: you can't consent to rape any more than assault in most cases.

[Gabu]

I find it strange that a man is so committed to an anti-male feminist slant on things.  While I don't agree with rape, there are other ways to look at the problem than just the feminist angle.  Since the feminist angle has not proven to be particularly effective, maybe we should look at other alternatives.

My comments were based on the theoretical circumstance in which we know for sure that the man was having forcible sex with an unwilling wife.  Of course, things get murkier where we have the case that it could be that the wife consented to sex and is now attempting to screw the man over for it, but I presumed that we weren't talking about that part of things.

[nclib]

The issue becomes even muddier when the two parties are in a relationship, such as marriage, that implies sexual availablility.  For the same reason, reported rapes in situations where the man and woman know each other well, or the woman voluntarily put herself in the man's private company in a situation where a reasonable person would conclude the sex is probable, are also problematic in terms of obtaining convictions.

Then why should marital rape be legal, but rape in cohabitation be illegal?

[dazzleman]

I find it strange that a man is so committed to an anti-male feminist slant on things.  While I don't agree with rape, there are other ways to look at the problem than just the feminist angle.  Since the feminist angle has not proven to be particularly effective, maybe we should look at other alternatives.

I'm afraid I don't find this a feminist issue as you do - I find it an issue of someone's right to not be hurt.

Rape is not just a psychological thing - it is not about sex, it is about physical domination. It is vicious. It's not as if rapists generally are gentle about it. Rape is generally sexual assault - it hurts the person being raped, and is really the equivilant to assault, which is exactly why it's hard to consent to it.

Some people may find being hurt sexually exciting, but for the most part, it's as clear-cut: you can't consent to rape any more than assault in most cases.

I don't disagree with you on the evil of rape.  The issue itself is not a feminist issue, but there is a feminist way of looking at the issue that I don't always find totally satisfying.  I was raising practical concerns about having a legalistic focus on the issues that come up within a marriage.

Ours is an overly legalistic society in my opinion, and we think often that the law can somehow rescue us from the consequences of bad decisions we have made.  If rape is truly taking place within a marriage, then the real answer is to leave the marriage.  Prosecution may be part of that, but practically speaking, probably only in extreme cases.

Unless there is evidence of other physical abuse, it is going to be very had to get a conviction against a man for raping his wife.

It's true that you can't consent to rape, but you can consent to sex, and then claim it's rape.  It happens every day.  While rape is the most underreported crime, it's also the most overreported.  And it's not always black and white; sometimes, one party perceives rape and the other does not.

I have a problem with not having a clear, impartial standard rather than relying simply on female perceptions, as feminists propose.  As men, we should both be concerned about the possibility of being blackmailed by a woman who has consented to have sex with us, and then claimed rape.  This does happen, and I think that men need to be protected against this sort of thing.  Let's not forget innocent until proven guilty.  And "proven" doesn't just mean an unsubstantiated claim, as feminists would like it to be.

[dazzleman]

The issue becomes even muddier when the two parties are in a relationship, such as marriage, that implies sexual availablility.  For the same reason, reported rapes in situations where the man and woman know each other well, or the woman voluntarily put herself in the man's private company in a situation where a reasonable person would conclude the sex is probable, are also problematic in terms of obtaining convictions.

Then why should marital rape be legal, but rape in cohabitation be illegal?

I don't think either should be legal.  The issue is the practicality of getting a conviction in these circumstances.  Whether you like it or not, men deserve some protection against false accusations.

[J. J.]

My greatest problem with the issue is trying to prove it.

[dazzleman]

Of course, things get murkier where we have the case that it could be that the wife consented to sex and is now attempting to screw the man over for it, but I presumed that we weren't talking about that part of things.

Well, this is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about as a potential issue.  It happens all the time, especially if the relationship is not solid, and the woman is angling for a better divorce settlement.  Don't think this type of thing doesn't happen.

I've observed abusive relationships, and in most cases, the abuse is a two-way street.  And when it's not, it is not always the woman who is the victim.  The idea that every case of domestic abuse is a purely innocent woman being terrorized and raped by a cruel and violent man (do the feminists think there is any other kind?) is mostly a fantasy.  It's actually far more complicated than that.

[Gabu]

Of course, things get murkier where we have the case that it could be that the wife consented to sex and is now attempting to screw the man over for it, but I presumed that we weren't talking about that part of things.

Well, this is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about as a potential issue.  It happens all the time, especially if the relationship is not solid, and the woman is angling for a better divorce settlement.  Don't think this type of thing doesn't happen.

I've observed abusive relationships, and in most cases, the abuse is a two-way street.  And when it's not, it is not always the woman who is the victim.  The idea that every case of domestic abuse is a purely innocent woman being terrorized and raped by a cruel and violent man (do the feminists think there is any other kind?) is mostly a fantasy.  It's actually far more complicated than that.

Well, yes.  I'm not saying that anything you've said above isn't true, only that my post was talking about marital rape itself, not any of the issues surrounding the difficulty in proving that it occurred.

[dazzleman]

Well, yes.  I'm not saying that anything you've said above isn't true, only that my post was talking about marital rape itself, not any of the issues surrounding the difficulty in proving that it occurred.

I'm just trying to point out the practical difficulties involved in suddenly starting a crusade against marital rape.  In concept of course rape is wrong, but the problem is how to define in a reasonable way, that protects men from false accusations, whether or not a rape actually takes place.

The difference I have with the feminists is that they're not too concerned if men have their lives ruined by false accusations.  I am.

[The Duke]

I think dazzleman's point is that there's more to this that to stand up and give the knee jerk answer you'd give to avoid some lefty shouting you down.

What exactly constitutes marital rape?  I've never heard of such a thing, the whole concept seems a bit foreign.

[Alcon]

I think dazzleman's point is that there's more to this that to stand up and give the knee jerk answer you'd give to avoid some lefty shouting you down.

What exactly constitutes marital rape?  I've never heard of such a thing, the whole concept seems a bit foreign.

Ugh...forcing your wife or husband to have sex with you. It's just like any other rape.

[The Duke]

It just seems a bit of a strange concept.

[Gabu]

It just seems a bit of a strange concept.

Well, picture in your mind what you think of when you hear the word "rape".

Now take the people in that picture and make them husband and wife instead of simply two unrelated people.

There, now you have a clear mental picture of what marital rape is.

[The Duke]

Are people with Washington avatars born this condescending, or do you all take classes?

Yeah, I have some idea about the technical details of how a rape is executed.  However, as I've said, the concept seems "foreign" and "strange", not impossible.  I've never heard of an actual case of marital rape, though they may well be fairly common.  Again, its seems a bit bizarre to me.  As dazzleman said, but you've all ignored, the dynamics of itneraction change when someone is in a relationship with you.

In case you were wondering, this is the conversation I was talking about people trying to avoid when subjects like this come up.

[dazzleman]

Are people with Washington avatars born this condescending, or do you all take classes?

Yeah, I have some idea about the technical details of how a rape is executed.  However, as I've said, the concept seems "foreign" and "strange", not impossible.  I've never heard of an actual case of marital rape, though they may well be fairly common.  Again, its seems a bit bizarre to me.  As dazzleman said, but you've all ignored, the dynamics of itneraction change when someone is in a relationship with you.

In case you were wondering, this is the conversation I was talking about people trying to avoid when subjects like this come up.

Yes, apparently these people would be perfectly happy with a system that allows women to make false accusations of rape in order to get a better financial settlement, or better child custody arrangement, in the divorce that she is secretly planning.

I really hate this constant harping on women as victims within marriage.  The implication that women are helpless, abused victims, even of the men they have chosen to spend their lives with, permeates the liberal side of this discussion.

And those on the left have resorted to their familiar tactics of condescension, and trying to paint anybody who doesn't accept their suppositions without reservation as morons.  I'm surprised by Gabu's attitude; he never really seemed that way to me in the past.

I don't think that rape can exist within a real marriage.  This is not a legal problem, but a relationship problem.  Certainly, if a woman is truly suffering from abuse at the hands of a husband, the law should protect her, provided that she exits the relationship.  But these types of cases are a small minority of "abuse" cases.  Most abuse cases are a two-way street, and the party complaining of abuse usually remains in the relationship voluntarily for quite some time after making claims of abuse.  One cannot claim her husband "raped" her, seek a legal solution to a personal problem, and then remain in the relationship.  The solution to this so-called problem is not really a legal one, though legal measures can apply in the most extreme cases.