How similar are Germany and Austria? How different are they?
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  How similar are Germany and Austria? How different are they?
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Author Topic: How similar are Germany and Austria? How different are they?  (Read 7015 times)
buritobr
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« on: August 24, 2015, 07:49:33 PM »

Germany and Austria are neighbor countries. They have the same language. In the 19th century, Austria considered the possibility of joining the "Big Germany".

What are the main similarities and the main differences between Germany and Austria? Besides the obvious, of course, that Germany is more populous and powerful.
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Hifly
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 08:08:06 PM »

Germany is more fiscally conservative, whereas Austria is more socially conservative.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 08:25:28 PM »

Austria used to be almost entirely Catholic, while Germany has both a big Protestant and a big Catholic population, which has been relevant in its political history and in the formation of a national identity.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 09:38:26 PM »

People in Germany don't tend to lock people up in basements.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 03:09:13 AM »

Austria is probably more like Bavaria than Germany as a whole. Tongue
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 12:21:51 PM »

People in Germany don't tend to lock people up in basements.

That's totally wrong of course. People are locking up people in basements all around the globe.

There have been recent cases in Ohio, California and Germany, just to  mention a few.

There are probably 100x more people locked up in US basements than in Austria ... (not including the CIA black sites) Tongue
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 12:27:50 PM »

On the question:

Austria is to Germany roughly what West Virginia is to Virginia.

Canada vs. US would be a similar comparison, but that's not as good as WV vs. VA

Like WV, Austria is more conservative and rural than VA and Germany.

Also, with the FPÖ being much stronger here recently (like in WV, where blue-dog Democrats are now voting Republican), it's another good comparsion. The FPÖ is also picking up former and current blue-collar workers. In VA and Germany that's not the case to this extent.
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Blue3
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 02:54:51 PM »
« Edited: August 25, 2015, 03:00:36 PM by Blue3 »

I've always viewed Austria as more sophisticated, aristocratic, "old school" Europe (as well as very Catholic), the last remnant of an ancient dissolved empire, compared to Germany's industrial, tech-heavy, modern, born and shaped by recent times nation-state. When I think of Vienna I think of sophistication, elaborate architecture, and Beethoven. When I think of Berlin I think of the 1980's punk rock culture teenagers who then grew and became successful but lonely business people.
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Gunnar Larsson
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 04:05:22 AM »

Austria is probably more like Bavaria than Germany as a whole. Tongue

I tend to think of Austria that way, but what I do not understand is why Austria is much more left election-wise.
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CLARENCE 2015!
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 08:02:27 AM »

Very interesting...... I love both nations but I especially loved Vienna when I was there....
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palandio
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2015, 11:32:55 AM »

The modern (19th century) idea of Germany is not thinkable without a German people, which was mainly defined by language. But the idea of a German people was there before a modern state called Germany (or German Empire) came into existence.
With Austria it's the other way round. Austria was an archeduchy which became the core of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire and its subjects were the Austrians.

The difference between Austria and Bavaria election-wise in my opinion can partially be explained by the following reasoning. Normally the national level is the most important level of political alignment. On the most important level dominant-party systems are rare. Japan might come to mind. India and Israel had dominant-party systems for a generation or so after independence, but then changed. South Africa might follow. Cold War Italy was some kind of an anomal side equilibrium.
Austria's party system is similar to many other developed democracies, since there is no dominant party. The situation with a far-right opposition party and grand coalitions is becoming quite common now, Austria was the avantguarde for this.
Bavaria is not an independent country and hence its party has to be seen in the context of the (historically relatively) balanced German party system. If Bavaria was an independent country it might have developed party system similar to Austria.
If in some scenario of alternative history Austria would have become part of Germany, it might have developed a Bavaria-like party system, with the ÖVP absorbing the Third Camp and various anti-centralists.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2015, 12:13:24 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2015, 12:20:15 PM by Simfan34 »

Not very relevant, but if Bavaria was an independent country, it'd likely be a monarchy. They actually rejected the Grundgesetz initially for this reason (and questions of autonomy)-- the Wittelsbach pretender was immensely popular at the time.

e: Makes you wonder what an 20th century Austrian state with a monarchy would have been called. Kaiserthum is far too bombastic, while Archduchy is underwhelming. There never was a "Kingdom of Austria", though.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2015, 12:30:17 PM »

e: Makes you wonder what an 20th century Austrian state with a monarchy would have been called. Kaiserthum is far too bombastic, while Archduchy is underwhelming. There never was a "Kingdom of Austria", though.

Since a post WW1 Austrian monarchy would in all likelihood been a continuation of the previous one, of course Austria would have stayed a Kaisertum. Your point of far too bombastic makes sense obviously, but this is Austria we are talking about - faux bombasticism and grandeur of days past is kinda our thing.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2015, 12:40:45 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2015, 01:26:26 PM by Simfan34 »

Yes, having been to Vienna you'd think they controlled a whole lot more than a chunk of Central Europe... and it was same thing in Budapest!









Believe it or not, Buda Castle is actually largely an empty shell stripped of its original neo-Baroque ornament (which is planned to be restored), while the Hofburg is missing an entire unbuilt wing(which some have recently contemplated building). The fact this duplication was not the end of Austrian ostentation (in Vienna there are two large palaces-- the Belvedere and Schwarzenberg--jammed into the same park!) really tells you about the Habsburg frame of mind. One imagines what they would have done had they gotten their hands on a colonial empire...
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Cranberry
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2015, 12:41:27 PM »

On topic though, it is relevant to remember that the entire Austrian identity was formed by the idea that we are anything but German, that we are somehow different from them. Nations and peoples usually have some sort of defining principle, be it language (Italians, French) or some sort of (long) common history (Belgium, Switzerland...). Austria, in relation to Germany, lacks that, there was nothing really dividing us, so when they started to plant the idea of an Austrian nation and Austrian nationalism into people's head after WWII, they had to start with the only thing that came to their minds - creating an artificial notion that we are not Germans, we are not like them; and which sadly (then conveniently) also heavily included the notion "we are not Nazis", giving Austrians in their mind a cart blanche on denying their part in the crimes of Nazism.

That isn't to say that there are no or were no differences of culture or mindset between Germany and Austria. Largely however, they were artificially created after WWII to forever bury the possibility of a second Anschluss.
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Beezer
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2015, 12:42:02 PM »

An emperor for 8 million people. Ridiculous...like the notion of Austrian nationhood.

I kid, I kid.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2015, 12:53:45 PM »

On topic though, it is relevant to remember that the entire Austrian identity was formed by the idea that we are anything but German, that we are somehow different from them. Nations and peoples usually have some sort of defining principle, be it language (Italians, French) or some sort of (long) common history (Belgium, Switzerland...). Austria, in relation to Germany, lacks that, there was nothing really dividing us, so when they started to plant the idea of an Austrian nation and Austrian nationalism into people's head after WWII, they had to start with the only thing that came to their minds - creating an artificial notion that we are not Germans, we are not like them; and which sadly (then conveniently) also heavily included the notion "we are not Nazis", giving Austrians in their mind a cart blanche on denying their part in the crimes of Nazism.

That isn't to say that there are no or were no differences of culture or mindset between Germany and Austria. Largely however, they were artificially created after WWII to forever bury the possibility of a second Anschluss.

Yes, this does sound quite accurate to me. Whether in 1918 or in 1945, it's clear that Austrians would have willingly opted for Anschluss by a wide margin. Nations are funny things...

Oh, and also, I was imagining a post-1945 restoration rather than a post-1918 rump.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2015, 12:58:19 PM »

On topic though, it is relevant to remember that the entire Austrian identity was formed by the idea that we are anything but German, that we are somehow different from them. Nations and peoples usually have some sort of defining principle, be it language (Italians, French) or some sort of (long) common history (Belgium, Switzerland...). Austria, in relation to Germany, lacks that, there was nothing really dividing us, so when they started to plant the idea of an Austrian nation and Austrian nationalism into people's head after WWII, they had to start with the only thing that came to their minds - creating an artificial notion that we are not Germans, we are not like them; and which sadly (then conveniently) also heavily included the notion "we are not Nazis", giving Austrians in their mind a cart blanche on denying their part in the crimes of Nazism.

That isn't to say that there are no or were no differences of culture or mindset between Germany and Austria. Largely however, they were artificially created after WWII to forever bury the possibility of a second Anschluss.

Yes, this does sound quite accurate to me. Whether in 1918 or in 1945, it's clear that Austrians would have willingly opted for Anschluss by a wide margin. Nations are funny things...

Oh, and also, I was imagining a post-1945 restoration rather than a post-1918 rump.

Then it would still have been the Kaisertum, for matters of getting the image of a glorious Austria of old days back to the people (which would have been another means to create an Austrian identity) Königreich probably would have been viewed as too un-Austrian, too German; and if there's one thing Austria was never (say since 1945) too fond of it's the idea of something being "too German"
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2015, 01:03:35 PM »

Germany is a proper country. Austria is a surreal union of an ancient imperial capital and a couple of hick provinces most of which aren't even part of said ancient imperial capital's hinterland.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 01:14:50 PM »

Germany is a proper country. Austria is a surreal union of an ancient imperial capital and a couple of hick provinces most of which aren't even part of said ancient imperial capital's hinterland.

Partly right, at least up to Napoleon. Said capital's hinterland, let's define it as Cisleithana, shall we! did include all of modern Austria (well apart from the Burgenland), however, modern (German)-Austria doesn't include all of these hinterlands even if those being divided by language lines (ever heard of South Tyrol, the Sudetes, Brno and Maribor?). Not that I want to undertake some good old historical revisionism here (quite a strong case could be made for South Tyrol though, if people wanted), but just pointing that out.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2015, 01:17:31 PM »

I personally think the saga of South Tyrol is not quite finished just yet.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2015, 01:18:12 PM »

On topic though, it is relevant to remember that the entire Austrian identity was formed by the idea that we are anything but German, that we are somehow different from them. Nations and peoples usually have some sort of defining principle, be it language (Italians, French) or some sort of (long) common history (Belgium, Switzerland...). Austria, in relation to Germany, lacks that, there was nothing really dividing us, so when they started to plant the idea of an Austrian nation and Austrian nationalism into people's head after WWII, they had to start with the only thing that came to their minds - creating an artificial notion that we are not Germans, we are not like them; and which sadly (then conveniently) also heavily included the notion "we are not Nazis", giving Austrians in their mind a cart blanche on denying their part in the crimes of Nazism.

That isn't to say that there are no or were no differences of culture or mindset between Germany and Austria. Largely however, they were artificially created after WWII to forever bury the possibility of a second Anschluss.

Yes, this does sound quite accurate to me. Whether in 1918 or in 1945, it's clear that Austrians would have willingly opted for Anschluss by a wide margin. Nations are funny things...

Oh, and also, I was imagining a post-1945 restoration rather than a post-1918 rump.
correct me if I'm wrong but I recalls the Allies forcing as part of the post-war settlement that Germany and Austria will not be united.

is there a constitutional barrier to this if one day they do decide to walk that path?  
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Cranberry
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2015, 01:21:23 PM »

Believe it or not, Buda Castle is actually largely an empty shell stripped of its original neo-Baroque ornament (which is planned to be restored), while the Hofburg is missing http://an entire unbuilt wing(which some have recently contemplated building). The fact this duplication was not the end of Austrian ostentation (in Vienna there are two large palaces-- the Belvedere and Schwarzenberg--jammed into the same park!) really tells you about the Habsburg frame of mind. One imagines what they would have done had they gotten their hands on a colonial empire...

You left out the fact that the Belvedere is actually two palaces, so that makes it three Tongue
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Cranberry
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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2015, 01:27:30 PM »

I personally think the saga of South Tyrol is not quite finished just yet.

That depends quite on the progress/regress of the European Union, I would say. As long as Europe is unified as much as it is at the moment, or even more, I seriously doubt that much will happen on that front. South Tyroleans actually are far more privileged at the moment being a nearly fully autonomous province of Italy than they would as just another state (or as just part of just another state) of Austria. Should however things change on the European front, I'd wager that the whole affair could take another turn, you are right about that.

Who knows, maybe all Tyroleans together free ourselves from the seven hundred years of foreign dominion, anyway if from Rome or Vienna Tongue that was obviously just a joke, notwithstanding the fact that Tyrolean identity is actually far more natural, historic and to an extent stronger than Austrian identity
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Simfan34
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2015, 01:28:14 PM »

On topic though, it is relevant to remember that the entire Austrian identity was formed by the idea that we are anything but German, that we are somehow different from them. Nations and peoples usually have some sort of defining principle, be it language (Italians, French) or some sort of (long) common history (Belgium, Switzerland...). Austria, in relation to Germany, lacks that, there was nothing really dividing us, so when they started to plant the idea of an Austrian nation and Austrian nationalism into people's head after WWII, they had to start with the only thing that came to their minds - creating an artificial notion that we are not Germans, we are not like them; and which sadly (then conveniently) also heavily included the notion "we are not Nazis", giving Austrians in their mind a cart blanche on denying their part in the crimes of Nazism.

That isn't to say that there are no or were no differences of culture or mindset between Germany and Austria. Largely however, they were artificially created after WWII to forever bury the possibility of a second Anschluss.

Yes, this does sound quite accurate to me. Whether in 1918 or in 1945, it's clear that Austrians would have willingly opted for Anschluss by a wide margin. Nations are funny things...

Oh, and also, I was imagining a post-1945 restoration rather than a post-1918 rump.
correct me if I'm wrong but I recalls the Allies forcing as part of the post-war settlement that Germany and Austria will not be united.

is there a constitutional barrier to this if one day they do decide to walk that path? 

I don't know if there's anything in the constitution, but that is correct. I highly, highly, doubt it'd ever happen today, anyway. I don't know if you can even find proponents of the idea in the FPÖ these days (a significant portion of the old FPÖ's were ardent supporters of another Anschluss).
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