Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Middle-aged Europe]

The stupidity in this thread could power an entire nuclear plant!!!

[Middle-aged Europe]

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Because not everybody should act like an asshole?

[Middle-aged Europe]

As it happens, I'm getting a lot of anti-immigration phone calls and e-mails at my workplace lately. And my experience is that those are not very nice people. I remember that one caller who argued - similarly to Seinfeld here - that burning down refugee homes are an acceptable form of civil disobedience. And then there was this letter last week which ended with threats, including some rather detailed description of torture and mutilation.

Said letter is in the hands of the police now, but the point being is: There are so many "indigenous" people here who can only be described as human garbage who shouldn't live here let alone be citizens, what does it matter to let hundreds of thousands of Muslims in? They can only raise the quality of our culture, not lower it.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The scum came up with something new: Placing stickers with anti-Islamic slogans in the streets and rigging them razor blades beneath, so that you cut yourself when you're trying to remove them.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, these kinds of fights are an almost daily occurance in Germany now.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern State Police reports that there has been no noticable increase in the crime rate due to the recent influx of refugees, pointing out that rumours about refugee-related crimes are often fabricated and spread on the Internet. Occasional brawls between asylum seekers are described as largely being "under control".

At the same time, they also report that "politically motivated felonies" against asylum-seeker homes have increased by 200% (compared to 2014).

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/Polizei-widerspricht-Geruechten-um-Fluechtlingskriminalitaet,fluechtlinge4178.html

I think at least internationally the impression of high crime rates and big brawls are based on interviews with German police officers and police union reps more than internet rumors or individual "stories".

So?

Well, firstly it means that this will be less relevant in changing the narrative about the situation and secondly that there seems to be a discrepancy between what official statistics say and what policemen  experience. It could also be that the ones being interviewed are disproportionally right wingers, but I am somewhat skeptical about that (although some are). On that topic Rainer Wendt from Deutsche Polizeigewerkschaft seems to have right wing contacts (though New Right, not far-right). Do you know more about his political connections?

As I understand it crimes against other asylum seekers inside the camps is the big problem with sexual assaults on women and children, violence and threats against minorities/rival groups etc, various forms of exploitation and extortion. Most of it going unreported. Not so much crimes against Germans.

I would still treat interviews with policemen as anecdotal evidence. You say you doubt that the interviewed policemen are disproportionally right wingers. What's your basis for that statement?

Rainer Wendt is a CDU member and one from the party's right wing it seems. I guess he has a lot of beef with his party chairwoman right now, but that's his problem. Today the police union criticized yesterday's episode of the popular Tatort police procedural show which was basically a fictionalized version of a real-life case of a refugee burning to death in a police cell back in 2005. I guess they can't stand negative portrayals of the police in TV shows either...

I'm aware of the reports regarding sexual results in asylum seeker homes, but given that any negative refugee-related reports seem to get blown way out of proportion I'm not sure what to do with that information.

If we go by anecdotal evidence, a colleague of mine has sheltered Syrian refugees at his home as does someone who is known by someone I know, and by that account they are really nice people. So, what now?

You also ignored the reported 200% increase in crimes committed against asylum-seeker homes btw.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Stay classy, Pegida!

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, there was a guillotine at an anti-TTIP rally as well. People shouldn't make too much out of stuff like this.

I strongly disagree for several reasons.

1) It's a classical "two wrongs make a right" fallacy.

2) Judging from what I see on Facebook, posting that guillotine picture seems to be the standard counter-argument from Pegida apologists to the gallows picture. So, it's not a very original argument to make.

3) Judging from my own experience, Pegida supporters are potentially more dangerous than anti-TTIP protestors. In the last two months, I forwarded three mails/letters from anti-immigration people to the police due to its violent and/or threatening content at my work. I never had to do the same with mails from anti-TTIP people.

Of course, there's also some overlap between the anti-immigration and anti-TTIP people. The average member of the anti-Islam, anti-immigration, anti-America, pro-Putin, anti-Bilderberg, anti-Chemtrail, I-order-my-books-at-the-Kopp-Verlag crowd will naturally attend both Pegida and anti-TTIP rallies.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Pegida protestors present gallows for Merkel and Gabriel at a rally, and the public prosecutor who investigates whether the gallows constituted a "public incitement to crime" receives death threats now. Arson attacks against asylum-seeker homes have become normality and some morons had rigged posters with anti-Islamic slogans with razorblades.

It is always said that immigrants must adapt to German culture. Is this the culture they're supposed to adapt to?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Assassination attempt on Cologne mayoral candidate Henriette Reker. Reker is in surgery. The perpetrator is in police custody, reportedly he claims opposition to current immigration policies as motive. Election is tomorrow and will not be postponed.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Assassination attempt on Cologne mayoral candidate Henriette Reker. Reker is in surgery. The perpetrator is in police custody, reportedly he claims opposition to current immigration policies as motive. Election is tomorrow and will not be postponed.

Sad news.

Tried googling her. Reker is an indy Green supported by CDU and parts of FDP?

Basically, yes.

Perpetrator is a 44-year-old unemployed painter and varnisher, who probably picked Reker as a target because she's the departmental head responsible for the managment of refugees within the city administration.

[Middle-aged Europe]

There are always going to be crazy people. I think we should wait before somehow laying the blame at the feet of everyone critical of Merkel's migrant policies. Of course you just know the mainstream parties will pounce on this and declare that all those not in favor of the government's position have blood on their hands.

Well, judging from what you can read in respective blogs, Internet forums and Facebook groups there are huge portions of the Pegida/pro-AfD scene which use a totally overblown, martial rethoric in their discussions. They talk about how Merkel committed "high treason" with her immigration policies and that Germans have a "right to resist" against that in accordance with Article 20, Section 4 of the constitution and so on. And it's always possible, if not likely, that someone will take that crap a little too serious at some point. The gallows at the Pegida rally in Dresden was the first step, this is the next. The next level will probably letter bombs to party headquarters or something like that.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Tragic and sad.

But this is exactly the stuff I tried to warn you about. This silly, reckless mass immigration policy "stresses" the native population unnecessarily and makes them agitated. That is why I favour the common sense policy of only letting in the number of migrants the system is designed for, while directing the surplus immigrants to their airport so they can board a plane that takes them home from where they came from (or nearby).

You don't yield to terrorists.

[Middle-aged Europe]

There are always going to be crazy people. I think we should wait before somehow laying the blame at the feet of everyone critical of Merkel's migrant policies. Of course you just know the mainstream parties will pounce on this and declare that all those not in favor of the government's position have blood on their hands.

Well, judging from what you can read in respective blogs, Internet forums and Facebook groups there are huge portions of the Pegida/pro-AfD scene which use a totally overblown, martial rethoric in their discussions. They talk about how Merkel committed "high treason" with her immigration policies and that Germans have a "right to resist" against that in accordance with Article 20, Section 4 of the constitution and so on. And it's always possible, if not likely, that someone will take that crap a little too serious at some point. The gallows at the Pegida rally in Dresden was the first step, this is the next. The next level will probably letter bombs to party headquarters or something like that.

Meh, how's this any different from what you will encounter on left wing sites and their rhetoric towards governmental/state institutions? Obviously an attack like this is despicable but blaming a party like the AfD for the actions of a single lunatic is completely ridiculous.

Again, this is a "two wrongs make a right" fallacy.

Got a better argument than that?

[Middle-aged Europe]

@Old Europe: Population changes are de facto irreversible and given the number of asylum seekers is very large (+ will result in family reunifications) and is unlikely to go down in the foreseeable future (at least according to UNHCR) it is an usual situation, especially with the next election so far out.

The question is if there is a point beyond which it simply isn't fair to consider something a normal political decision? And if you are approaching that point?

Germany doesn't really have constitutional methods for dealing with this situation (other than just pretending it is a normal situation).

A Volksbefragung (people's inquiry) is the only referendum option, and just non-binding plebiscite. So using it would rely on politicians being willing to follow a result.

The German constitution only allows early elections after a vote of no confidence or inability to form a majority government. So not really an option.

Given that there isn't really any realistic options for getting to vote on this monumental decision some strong reaction is unavoidable from the opponents. So far it has actually been milder than one would have expected (Germans are a remarkably disciplined bunch - and so are Swedes). You could hope civil disobedience will be the weapon of choice rather than violence, but continued low level violence with arson against refugee facilities and some direct attacks seems likely.

You would have had attacks from hardcore racists anyway, but the frustration of being unable to influence this is bound to increase the level of violence.

(I will emphasize that what makes it monumental is the cumulated effect of a continued migration - if one believes it is a temporary crisis it becomes a more "normal" crisis, but that seems unrealistic.)

I don't see the necessity for a referendum.

[Middle-aged Europe]

About time, because otherwise they are just forcing their dangerous policies down the throats of the Austrian population without even asking them if they like them or not.

http://tv.orf.at/program/orf2/20151124/768871601/404842

While some fears must be alleviated, politicians should also make clear that not every concern regarding refugees is justified though. Because some people are frankly morons and their opinion do not possess value just because they're citizens. For instance, I stopped counting how often I heard/read the argument that the current refugee crisis is the result of an American plot to weaken and/or destroy Germany by having deliberately creating the refugee crisis and directing the refugees to Germany.

[Middle-aged Europe]

All the Merkel/Faymann-induced migrant excesses that I have warned you guys for over a year now are slowly becoming reality ...

Merkel/Faymann have turned into a reckless security threat for European citizens with their idiotic, naive policies. But now it's time for them and their fellow naive left-leftists to WAKE UP (instead of sitting this out and remain silent), apologize to the raped and abused women and terror victims across Europe (but not with the line "Du schaffst das !") and start to do the right thing for once. Which is to shut the door on these migrants and tell them to stay home, plus deport the rapists etc. immediately (who otherwise think they can continue to sh*t on our heads) !

I agree than rapists should be deported, but that may be very difficult (you can't deport someone in another country without the authorization of the receiving country and I don't see Assad doing anything to help Europe; nor any country volunteering to take them).

Those weren't Syrians in Cologne... well, only a minority of them there anyway. Mostly Algerians and Moroccans. And one U.S. citizen, in fact.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Anyway, I was subpoenaed to appear in court as a witness. It was about a guy who - in opposition to the refugee policy - had declared his wish to "poke out the eyes and cut off the tongue" of a certain politician last autumn. Defendant refused to appear in court yesterday. Judge couldn't say how the trial will continue. On the upside, because he wasn't there the accused didn't come to know my name and how I look. Because I don't have any pepper spray yet you know.

[Middle-aged Europe]

   I'm fascinated in the idea of the Russian immigrant community in Germany taking a role in anti-migrant protest.  This should be exciting to those in Germany who hope that immigrants in general start integrating into the general German population, for here we see a case of an immigrant group taking an active role in German civic life, and taking a mainstream political stance (if the AFD, CSU and conservative wing of CDU is mainstream that is).  

It's not really a sign of integration when the German authorities repeatedly stress that this rape didn't occur at all, the Russian government accuse the German authorities of covering up that rape and the migrant group chooses the swallow the Russian propaganda.

And no, the AfD ain't mainstream.

[Middle-aged Europe]

AfD got its own problems now since it started a debate whether it is legal to shoot children refugees and if not, whether it is at least legal to shoot their mothers.

Heard some rumours that AfD deputy chairman Alexander Gauland may launch a coup against AfD chairwoman Frauke Petry over this.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So when are Ag and Tony going to come back and call everybody racists again?  I miss that.

I can do that for you. No problem.

According to the annual crime report of Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office there were 1.029 cases of politically motivated violent crimes (the majority of which being assaults and battery) perpetrated by right-wing extremists in the year 2014, an increase by 22.9% compared to 2013.

Assmuming that the rate of increase stayed the same we're talking about maybe 1.250 cases for 2015. That's roughly 3.5 politically motivated violent crimes perpetrated by right-wing extremists each day. Which means that statistically speaking there have must have been about 20 cases of violence comitted by right-wing extremists against other people since the beginning of this week (February 1) in Germany.

Some examples from this week include:

http://www.lvz.de/Mitteldeutschland/Polizeiticker-Mitteldeutschland/Angriff-mit-Messer-auf-Asylbewerber-in-Regis-Breitingen

http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/50152/3243491

http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/krefeld/beleidigungen-in-der-regionalbahn-aelteres-ehepaar-bedroht-mutter-und-kind-aid-1.5739160

In addition, there was a case of a 21-year-old woman from Thuringia who admitted that her story of being raped by a group of asylum seekers had been completely fabricated:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/vergewaltigung-von-fluechtlingen-von-21-jaehriger-erfunden-a-1075977.html

So, Omega21, Beezer, and Tender Branson apparently had both the time and the inclination to post five cases of supposed crimes committed by immigrants in Europe. But they weren't able (or willing) to post at least one of the other cases I just mentioned, be it just to ensure a more balanced view of the situation.

So, my question to you, dead0man, would be: Why do you think is this the case?

[Middle-aged Europe]

There's now a "Hoaxmap" which collects all alleged reports of asylum seekers committing crimes in Germany which have been disproven as false:

http://hoaxmap.org/

Currently, it lists 200 crimes which didn't occur, including 39 cases of rape by asylum seekers which didn't occur.