Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Tender Branson]

Germany to introduce border controls this evening:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlinge-deutschland-fuehrt-voruebergehend-grenzkontrollen-ein-a-1052704.html

[Gunnar Larsson]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is just Arabic speaking people from Syria coming to Europe. Or that they are the only ones suffering from conflicts.

Also, seems fairly odd to suddenly single out Kurds and Christians as apparently not real refugees (though I guess it makes as much sense as the opposite position, held by some countries)

[Tender Branson]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is just Arabic speaking people from Syria coming to Europe. Or that they are the only ones suffering from conflicts.

Also, seems fairly odd to suddenly single out Kurds and Christians as apparently not real refugees (though I guess it makes as much sense as the opposite position, held by some countries)

That's not the main point: the important point is that an increasing number of people from non-war zones are using the naive goodwill of the Germans/Austrian governments to sneak into these countries with fake passports or no papers at all, by destroying them before they arrive.

Anyway, the German government seems to pull the plug now because not only will they implement border controls starting this evening but also the Austrian Railway will stop all rail traffic to Germany from 5pm onwards at the request of the German government, which means the migrants will strand on the Salzburg/Bavarian border in the ten thousands in the next days and weeks ...

[Hnv1]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

Oh man, try to defend that you naive leftists ...

Wouldn't they be found eventually and deported? I see no reason people from Egypt\Pakistan\any country not in war should be regarded as refugees

[Beezer]

That's absurd. Germany was the first country to let go of the Dublin criteria. Then Merkel invited all people outside Europe over to Germany. She cannot do a 180 and send all these people, whom she basically invited herself, to other countries.

Well, Austria is not the first country to get merkeled. Whatever she says has a half-life of around 2 days. Then she may just forget about it entirely and do something else (see her energy policies or position during the eurozone crisis).

[Beezer]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

Oh man, try to defend that you naive leftists ...

Wouldn't they be found eventually and deported? I see no reason people from Egypt\Pakistan\any country not in war should be regarded as refugees

Well, you can always claim your lost your documents and just concoct a story about your background. Who's gonna disprove you? A German asylum worker with no understanding of the Arab language?

[Tender Branson]

So, Germany shuts the border and the trains to Germany are stopped - while Orban is sending all the migrants through to Austria by showing Faymann the middle-finger for his Holocaust comments (see above).

What this means is that Austria will have a MASSIVE migrant backlog in the next weeks.

I'm looking forward to the Upper Austria state election in 2 weeks when the SPÖ will drop to 10% and Faymann is hopefully history ...

[Gunnar Larsson]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is just Arabic speaking people from Syria coming to Europe. Or that they are the only ones suffering from conflicts.

Also, seems fairly odd to suddenly single out Kurds and Christians as apparently not real refugees (though I guess it makes as much sense as the opposite position, held by some countries)

That's not the main point: the important point is that an increasing number of people from non-war zones are using the naive goodwill of the Germans/Austrian governments to sneak into these countries with fake passports or no papers at all, by destroying them before they arrive.

Well, in that case you should deliver your main point and back it up with facts, rather than give a rather irrelevant number from one translator. Of course some will not follow the rules, as is always the case no matter if we talk migration or something else. What matters are how many and why. So, how many people are we talking about?

[Tender Branson]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

I don't think anyone has claimed that it is just Arabic speaking people from Syria coming to Europe. Or that they are the only ones suffering from conflicts.

Also, seems fairly odd to suddenly single out Kurds and Christians as apparently not real refugees (though I guess it makes as much sense as the opposite position, held by some countries)

That's not the main point: the important point is that an increasing number of people from non-war zones are using the naive goodwill of the Germans/Austrian governments to sneak into these countries with fake passports or no papers at all, by destroying them before they arrive.

Well, in that case you should deliver your main point and back it up with facts, rather than give a rather irrelevant number from one translator. Of course some will not follow the rules, as is always the case no matter if we talk migration or something else. What matters are how many and why. So, how many people are we talking about?

It's very hard to gather exact numbers from ILLEGALS. As Beezer said, who's going to check it ?

But is it so hard to believe it, now that Merkel & Faymann have "invited everyone in", that many are now trying to sneak in from not just Syria/Iraq and Af/Pak ?

[politicus]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

Oh man, try to defend that you naive leftists ...

Wouldn't they be found eventually and deported? I see no reason people from Egypt\Pakistan\any country not in war should be regarded as refugees

Deporting people against their will is not easy (in a democracy). There are many ways to resist and delay this. And it also depends on whether the home country will accept them.

[ag]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

Oh man, try to defend that you naive leftists ...

Wouldn't they be found eventually and deported? I see no reason people from Egypt\Pakistan\any country not in war should be regarded as refugees

Deporting people against their will is not easy (in a democracy). There are many ways to resist and delay this. And it also depends on whether the home country will accept them.

Of course, people whose home country would not accept them are not refugees.

Well, you can follow an Australian Supreme Court ruling and hold them imprisoned until some country accepts them. That way, most certainly, they will qualify as refugees - from you.

I have been deliberately staying off this thread for days. I must say, in my absense the quality of the discussion has reached new heights.

[Simfan34]

Bavarian state premier Horst Seehofer will invite Viktor Orban to the next conference meeting of his party's state parliamentary group. This is quite a big move considering that the German media and political class have painted Orban as an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees. Seehofer has also gone out of his way to criticize Merkel, calling her decision to accept refugees from Hungary a mistake.

(In German) http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/horst-seehofer-wettert-gegen-angela-merkel-in-fluechtlingspolitik-a-1052455.html

Orban IS an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees, though.

I believe those would be called "refugee camps".

[Tender Branson]

Update:

* After Germany closed the border at 5:30 pm and stopped all train travel, Austrian Chancellor Faymann has ordered no border controls on the Hungarian border.

* The decision by Germany to shut the border also had to do with the coming Octoberfest. The mix of drunk German hooligans & normal people and Muslim (non-alcohol-drinking) refugees incl. small kids was just too dangerous to keep migrants coming to Munich train station.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What the f**k, Merkel? Dumbest flip-flop ever.

[politicus]

Bavarian state premier Horst Seehofer will invite Viktor Orban to the next conference meeting of his party's state parliamentary group. This is quite a big move considering that the German media and political class have painted Orban as an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees. Seehofer has also gone out of his way to criticize Merkel, calling her decision to accept refugees from Hungary a mistake.

(In German) http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/horst-seehofer-wettert-gegen-angela-merkel-in-fluechtlingspolitik-a-1052455.html

Orban IS an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees, though.

I believe those would be called "refugee camps".

Yes, calling a refugee camp a concentration camp is extremely hyperbolic. Most refugees in the world have to accept living in camps, there is no inherent reason why this should suddenly become something outrageous just because it happens in Europe. Hungarian refugee camps will still be miles better than African refugee camps.

[DavidB.]

The Czech Republic also announced border controls with Austria, fearing that the migrants will now attempt to reach Germany through this country.

In the meantime, Finnish Finance Minister Alexander Stubb announced that the highest bracket of Finland's capital gains tax will be raised by one per cent, while people earning more than 72,300 euros will be required to pay a so-called solidarity tax for two years, lowering the threshold from 90,000 euros. "These will help to cover higher immigration costs which we estimate to be about 114 million euros this year."

That will surely make immigration more popular.

[Famous Mortimer]

Bavarian state premier Horst Seehofer will invite Viktor Orban to the next conference meeting of his party's state parliamentary group. This is quite a big move considering that the German media and political class have painted Orban as an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees. Seehofer has also gone out of his way to criticize Merkel, calling her decision to accept refugees from Hungary a mistake.

(In German) http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/horst-seehofer-wettert-gegen-angela-merkel-in-fluechtlingspolitik-a-1052455.html

Orban IS an autocrat who's one step away from erecting concentration camps for refugees, though.

I believe those would be called "refugee camps".

Yes, calling a refugee camp a concentration camp is extremely hyperbolic. Most refugees in the world have to accept living in camps, there is no inherent reason why this should suddenly become something outrageous just because it happens in Europe. Hungarian refugee camps will still be miles better than African refugee camps.

I don't suppose anyone besides Orban has proposed them, but regular old refugee camps would probably be the ideal solution here. On one hand, it would be offering legitimate accommodation to refugees. On the other, once it becomes clear that they aren't handing out free downtown Berlin apartments on demand, I suspect most people will lose their incentive to try to cross the Mediterranean.

I suspect it's not politically possible though. Most of the left and a good number of other people will freak out at anything that could be construed as creating a second class of permanent/semi-permanent residents.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The difference between a legitimate West European refugee camp (which anyway would only be a temporary solution before the refugees can acquire affordable housing) and a concentration camp is treating people with human dignity. It's not that hard to understand if you start from the assumption that refugees are human beings (which is apparently lost on most of you).

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Does anyone have actual figures as to how much each country has accepted up till now and - if possible - a breakdown of the various nationalities accepted? I mean, it has been obvious from the start that this isn't just from Syria.

[DavidB.]

Does anyone have actual figures as to how much each country has accepted up till now and - if possible - a breakdown of the various nationalities accepted? I mean, it has been obvious from the start that this isn't just from Syria.

This might be interesting for you. Although this chart only covers migrants in 2014. I don't know if something exists for the current migrant flow, but I think it might be pretty similar a view:

A flow chart on refugees from which countries are in which countries:
http://pejl.svt.se/flyktingstrommar-en/#sy2010

[Gunnar Larsson]

The Czech Republic also announced border controls with Austria, fearing that the migrants will now attempt to reach Germany through this country.

In the meantime, Finnish Finance Minister Alexander Stubb announced that the highest bracket of Finland's capital gains tax will be raised by one per cent, while people earning more than 72,300 euros will be required to pay a so-called solidarity tax for two years, lowering the threshold from 90,000 euros. "These will help to cover higher immigration costs which we estimate to be about 114 million euros this year."

That will surely make immigration more popular.

Not a fan of the Finnish government, but their current trolling of PS is very amusing (and way better than the Danish handling of DF), especially taking into account that PS are members of said government..

[Helsinkian]

Not a fan of the Finnish government, but their current trolling of PS is very amusing (and way better than the Danish handling of DF), especially taking into account that PS are members of said government..

They say that history repeats itself. The predecessor party of PS was SMP, the Finnish Rural Party, which got a big electoral victory in 1983 on a populist platform (immigration was not an issue back then; their populism was rather about being anti-establishment in general and competing with the Centre Party for the rural votes). The Finnish mainstream parties included SMP in coalition governments 1983−1990, the result of which was the complete collapse of the party.

I am sure some Centre and NCP politicians are hoping that the same will happen to PS. Their support has come down a couple of percentage points, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it continuing to fall.

[DavidB.]

Not a fan of the Finnish government, but their current trolling of PS is very amusing (and way better than the Danish handling of DF), especially taking into account that PS are members of said government..

Yeah, screwing up your country by taking in people who won't fit in your society just to discredit your democratically legitimized coalition partner is a really moral thing to do

PS should pull out of this coalition if it continues to open the borders. Sadly, Soini might be too egotistical to do so, which would ruin both the PS and Finland's chance to stop mass immigration and an expanding EU.

[Beezer]

Austrian police turning cars back into Hungary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYm7p0xjSac

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Don't the Finns Party have more a dislike of Swedes than anything else?