Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Storebought]

Yes, that's right. All this emotional energy spent on analysis of "employment data." What a nonsense.

Nothing posted here recently has to do with "truth" -- it does have everything to do with demagoguery and poisoning the well to make debate on an already emotional issue (for some) impossible. We are obliged to react with moral outrage, along the lines of "Take a look at what the animals are up to now!," with every post. And if Forumnites don't muster up the requisite levels of indignation, then they're PC or sellouts or cowards -- just as I have been called now.

The past few posts were so trashy and of so little news value (they didn't even mention link the site or the article the pictures were stolen from) they would have gotten the relevant posters banned from the likes of FreeRepublic for violating terms of service.

That is FreeRepublic, and this is Atlas Forum. But that still doesn't mean we have to let the site degenerate into becoming a free host for a White Citizens' Council.

[Famous Mortimer]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

[Storebought]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

No, my assessment was the correct one. People who hold entrenched negative attitudes about foreigners will of course collect any and all images and data (from whatever source, since he admitted that the State doesn't classify criminal activity by the ethnic or national origin of their suspects) that confirm their prejudicial point of view -- a completely dishonest form of discussion. This thread may have started as a thread about the refugee crisis, but has long since degenerated into a nativist's amen corner.

[Flocke]

The biggest group of foreign suspects in criminial cases in Austria: Germans
While making up only about 2% of the population, 4% of suspects from January to June 2015 were German citizens.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

Far from being "random", people dislike immigrants for understandable reasons, even if they're reasons that I, as the son of an immigrant, find to be distasteful. Of course the average "native born" citizen of a Western nation isn't going to be fond of immigrant communities that engage in different cultural rituals, speak different languages etc. That doesn't mean that immigrants commit more crimes or use more welfare benefits, that's inane and those claims are made to give chauvinism an intellectual veneer. For whatever reason, distorting facts to make libelous claims about the deviance of immigrant communities is more "politically correct" than stating that "someone wants Britain for the British".

I could post links to reams of data demonstrating these points but I've already done this in nearly every thread about immigration. The evidence doesn't matter.

[Edu]

This reminds me of when I went to Thailand and I saw Huge sings around tourist sites saying "Beware of the NON-THAI pickpocketers".

[Tender Branson]

The biggest group of foreign suspects in criminial cases in Austria: Germans
While making up only about 2% of the population, 4% of suspects from January to June 2015 were German citizens.

That's a terrible comparison, mostly because of the 60 million Germans visiting Austria annually. They sometimes steal some skis or snowboards etc.

And then you have for example 10.000 Chechens or Afghans here and you hear reports about killings, shootouts etc. on a weekly basis.

[Flocke]

And then you have for example 10.000 Chechens or Afghans here and you hear reports about killings, shootouts etc. on a weekly basis.

So of the 38 murders in Austria 2014, about fifty were committed by Afghans and Chechens?

[dead0man]

I was starting to wonder when the "you disagree with me about immigration, you must be a bigot" brigade was coming back, you guys had been so quiet the last few pages.  Welcome back!


(did one of them even accuse the other side of poisoning the well and killing discussion?  The ironing!)

[Storebought]

I was starting to wonder when the "you disagree with me about immigration, you must be a bigot" brigade was coming back, you guys had been so quiet the last few pages.  Welcome back!


(did one of them even accuse the other side of poisoning the well and killing discussion?  The ironing!)

No, it's not that at all, and that was not what I meant at all. I take exception to being characterized like that.

That was the second time I've been caricatured as a PC sell-out because I object to being goaded into hating migrants, when I haven't even given my own position on the topic yet.

But that is beside my main point:

The quality of the posts on this thread objectively don't even reach FreeRepublic standards. Why do the people adamantly against this migration insist upon invective (which is indeed poisoning the well, you can't argue otherwise) on making their point?

[ingemann]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

[Storebought]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

The innate criminality of immigrants, along with their innate tendency to vagrancy, has been a standard trope in arguments in favor of immigration restriction since the 19th century.

It would be helpful to read an argument in favor of EU-wide repatriation of migrants to Syria (which has to be distinguished from questions about immigration) that doesn't make claims, substantiated or otherwise, about the moral quality of the migrants themselves.

[ingemann]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

The innate criminality of immigrants, along with their innate tendency to vagrancy, has been a standard trope in arguments in favor of immigration restriction since the 19th century.

...and?

Immigrants was more criminal on average than the average native in the 19th century (again depending on group), so I should somehow change my opinion on the issue of immigration because in 3 generations they end up at the national average?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes and I have done so, if they stay in EU, they're a economic loss for European countries. That have nothing to do with "moral quality" of the Syrians, that's hard facts. That some of the loss is caused by bahaviour you of low "moral quality" is not a problem with my argument. 

[Tender Branson]

And then you have for example 10.000 Chechens or Afghans here and you hear reports about killings, shootouts etc. on a weekly basis.

So of the 38 murders in Austria 2014, about fifty were committed by Afghans and Chechens?

No, please read again what I wrote. I did not write exclusively about murders ...

And it does not change the fact that foreigners are responsible for 40% of murder cases here - despite "only" making up 12% of the population. Btw, murder cases are between 120-200 each year in Austria, not 38 as you posted - because they also include attempted murder cases. The 38 you posted are the murder cases in which the victim ended up dead.

[Storebought]

You seem to be under the impression that people have just randomly decided not to like immigrants and so they are using these numbers as justification.

It's the opposite. These numbers are the reason people are hesitant about allowing mass immigration.

If immigrants in general didn't commit so much crime, if they didn't use up so many benefits, people would not mind immigration as much.

The innate criminality of immigrants, along with their innate tendency to vagrancy, has been a standard trope in arguments in favor of immigration restriction since the 19th century.

...and?

Immigrants was more criminal on average than the average native in the 19th century (again depending on group), so I should somehow change my opinion on the issue of immigration because in 3 generations they end up at the national average?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes and I have done so, if they stay in EU, they're a economic loss for European countries. That have nothing to do with "moral quality" of the Syrians, that's hard facts. That some of the loss is caused by bahaviour you of low "moral quality" is not a problem with my argument.

That article I linked didn't "prove" that 19th century immigrants committed more crime than natives -- far from the case. It argued that social engineers and political action committees in thrall of the current pseudosciences of eugenics and Social Darwinism made use of (abused) statistics to "confirm" their long-held prejudice against, in the US at least, non Protestants and non Anglo-Saxons. They pressured Congress to act on the basis of scientific misconduct, which Congress did in passing the 1924 Immigration Act. The same arguments those social engineers made in favor of a closed country have been repeated, almost verbatim, in this very thread -- and if their arguments were spurious then [for one, crime rates increased in the US even after 1924, only coming to a crash as a result of the Great Depression], they're spurious now.

And your second contention isn't necessarily true anyway: Immigrants, and even migrants, become "economic drains" on account of state policy (eligible for welfare without being eligible for legal work permits), employer abuse (being paid in cash to avoid payroll taxes), and yes, prejudice (being passed over for legal employment even when qualified), not out of inherent defects of the migrants themselves. As for migrant children and the responsibility of their education, I don't consider education of minors to be a economic drain -- precisely the opposite.

If anything, Middle Eastern migrants these days are much more fit than the migrants of 100 years ago -- they are not physically stunted from childhood malnutrition, they can read, and they don't carry chronic infectious diseases like TB. One could make the argument that they should stay to improve their home countries, but it is a tall order to ask fit people possessing some human capital to die as cannon fodder for terrorists or dictators.

[Tender Branson]

The run to the gun shops continues:

Shotguns have 'virtually sold out' in Austria as citizens rush to buy arms amid fears of a massive influx of migrants, dealers claim

Weapon sales are soaring in Austria as citizens of the small Alpine nation become paranoid over the numbers of refugees crowding into their country.



In a country of 8.5 million people, there are now an estimated 900,000 firearms in homes.

And gun dealers report that it is women driving the sales rush. This year alone, police say 70,000 guns have been sold.

'Virtually all shotguns are currently sold out, because you need no permit for them', said Thomas Ortner, spokesman for an arms dealer in Upper Austria.

For every other type of weapon, a licence is required.

Licence courses, in which applicants must demonstrate knowledge of firearms, used to take place every five weeks but they are now held weekly because of spiking demand.

In cities like Salzburg, a line of people outside the necessary government office to get the paperwork to buy a gun is now an everyday sight.

Broadcasters and local media say the numbers of refugees - coupled with a fear of break-ins as a result - is fuelling the arms race.

'Because of the social change, people want to protect themselves,' one arms dealer told the broadcaster oe.24. He said 'many women' were among his customers.

The flood of 'refugees' into Austria is continuing without interruption.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3291978/Shotguns-virtually-sold-Austria-citizens-rush-buy-arms-amid-fears-massive-influx-migrants-dealers-claim.html

[Tender Branson]

Interior Minister Mikl-Leitner (ÖVP) said "some-kind-of-fence" will be built on the Slovenian border:

Austria plans 'technical barriers' on Slovenian border in migrant crisis

Austria will build "technical barriers" on its border with Slovenia to help control the flow of thousands of migrants crossing daily into Austrian territory, its interior minister said on Tuesday.

Over 680,000 asylum seekers fleeing war and deprivation in the Middle East, Africa and Asia have poured into Europe this year, with Slovenia and Austria currently bearing the brunt of a migrant tide along a corridor northwestwards from the Balkans.

"I have commissioned plans for special construction measures," Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner told reporters, according to Austria's APA news agency.

"The situation here is especially dynamic. We've had between 3,000 and 8,000 people crossing the border (a day). But we also need to prepare ourselves (in case numbers rise) to 12,000."

Mikl-Leitner, who was speaking to reporters at the Spielfeld border crossing with Slovenia, offered no details or time frame for the new measures. The interior ministry had no immediate comment on her remarks when contacted by Reuters for details.

Earlier on Tuesday the premier of the German state of Bavaria criticized neighboring Austria for failing to coordinate a tide of migrants into southern Germany even as he renewed a challenge to German Chancellor Angela Merkel over her management of the refugee crisis.

Slovenia said on Tuesday that about 14,500 migrants were currently in the tiny Alpine state, hoping to continue their journey to Austria later in the day or on Wednesday. More were on their way to Slovenia from Croatia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/27/us-europe-migrants-austria-idUSKCN0SL2JW20151027

...

Sry, but building "some-kind-of-fence" won't help and protecting the border "some-kind-of" won't either.

Either you do it Hungarian-style (where no migrant is setting foot into anymore), or you do it not at all.

Our politicians are totally clueless, spineless and directionless.

[ingemann]

Purely accidental Kristeligt Dagblad today (28 oktober 2015) have a article today about what immigrants cost, it's based on analyses from "Rockwool Fondens Forskningsenhed" (a independent research institute). It show that a non-western immigrants (both immigrants and refugees) give the Danish state a deficit of 17000 kr. (around 2500$) annual per immigrants, while western immigrants give a surplus of 19000 kr. (around 2800$).

BTW to anybody able to read Danish here's the rapport
http://www.rockwoolfonden.dk/files/RFF-site/Publikations%20upload/Arbejdspapirer/Arbejdspapir_30_Final.pdf

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Does the term "western immigrant" cover the newer members of the EU?

Also does it take into account their children? Both in terms of the fiscal losses (child tax credits and benefits & public education) and the fiscal gains (entry into the job market)?

[ingemann]

Does the term "western immigrant" cover the newer members of the EU?

Yes Poles and Romanians are western immigrants

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Immigrant children is part of this statistic, but children of immigrants (both children and adults) who born in Denmark is covered under a separate category; descendants. this group give a even higher deficit, but they're expected to give a surplus further down the road (there's a graph for 2050 where we can see they're expected to give a annual surplus at that time).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

All those aspects are taken into account.

[Beezer]

Interesting comment by the head of Germany's Office for Migration. Initially wondered if this was some sort of satirical article.

"Das ist eine gute Bereicherung unserer Arbeitswelt und unserer Gesellschaft, dass da nicht überall ältere graue Herren durch die Gegend laufen und langsam mit dem Auto auf der Autobahn rumfahren, sondern das wird eine lebendige Gesellschaft."

"This will be a good addition to our labor force and society, that there won't be just be old grey men walking around and driving slowly on the autobahn, this will instead be a vibrant society."

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article148175570/So-besonnen-relativiert-Weise-die-Fluechtlingskrise.html

I wonder if he knows who pays his salary. Probably greying, older men.

[Tender Branson]

500-1.000 people from the "Democratic Middle" (or Center) held a (peaceful) protest today in Spielfeld, which is the main migrant entry town on the Austrian/Slovenian border (3.000-10.000 migrants are crossing the border into Austria there every day):

[Tender Branson]

Meanwhile, the backlog of migrants is getting more and more serious at the Upper Austrian/Bavarian border, because 5.000-10.000 people arrive there every day, but the Bavarians are only letting in 200 people per hour.

Therefore it was decided that 3 huge tents are being built in the Innviertel region (Braunau, Ried, Schärding) to house 1.000 migrants each, which voted FPÖ by 40-45% in the past month (oh, the irony).



http://orf.at/stories/2307119/2307001

http://www.thelocal.at/20151031/germany-restricts-refugee-access-from-austria

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

Interesting comment by the head of Germany's Office for Migration. Initially wondered if this was some sort of satirical article.

"Das ist eine gute Bereicherung unserer Arbeitswelt und unserer Gesellschaft, dass da nicht überall ältere graue Herren durch die Gegend laufen und langsam mit dem Auto auf der Autobahn rumfahren, sondern das wird eine lebendige Gesellschaft."

"This will be a good addition to our labor force and society, that there won't be just be old grey men walking around and driving slowly on the autobahn, this will instead be a vibrant society."

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article148175570/So-besonnen-relativiert-Weise-die-Fluechtlingskrise.html

I wonder if he knows who pays his salary. Probably greying, older men.

Hey, at least they're not obfuscating their goals any longer.

[Beezer]

Seehofer in Berlin today to discuss the crisis with Mutti. He'll probably once again shy away from doing anything substanial...