Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread
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Author Topic: Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread  (Read 126438 times)
politicus
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« Reply #725 on: October 19, 2015, 04:44:11 AM »
« edited: October 19, 2015, 04:49:30 AM by politicus »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).

Non-citizens generally pay taxes in the countries they reside in, and that goes for migrants and refugees as well. Why shouldn't they get access to the same services and benefits other taxpayers receive?

Well, they pay taxes when and if they enter the labour market. They haven't done so on arrival. Plus their labour market participation is low in many countries - especially those with high minimum wages, which are the same ones that have an extensive welfare state.

Most unemployed people, whether native or immigrant, are looking for jobs. If they don't get them, that's probably due to economic circumstances that can be reversed through appropriate stimulus policies. But either way, the native unemployed person is in the same situation as the immigrant one. Why would you blame the latter more than the former?

I am not blaming anyone, I am trying to explain how people think.

If the you is not meant to include me, but is a generalized "you", then the answer is that most unemployed people are former taxpayers or related to taxpayers. Even if not so they are mostly part of a group other tax payers feel solidary with given that they have a shared ethnicity. This is (much) less so than it used to be, but the "we are paying to our own" factor is still important.

There is a classic 2001 US of why America doesn't have a welfare state by three Harvard professors, that pointed out that one main reason was that an America lacked the ethnic and social homogeneity of Western Europe and a large welfare state would mean massive redistribution across ethnic and racial groups. The second most important factor being the relatively equal distribution of political power.

Extensive welfare states were established in countries with a high degree of ethnic homogeneity, because most people are willing to pay higher taxes to help their own group than "foreigners".  
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Beezer
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« Reply #726 on: October 20, 2015, 04:39:48 AM »

The logic of some on the left on this topic is just beyond comprehension. Here's the thing: Even qualified migrants/refugees will probably have to receive government support for 2, 3 years (ie best case scenario) before they can pay into the system. And even then it will take them quite a while to just - let's say - "reimburse" the government for previous services rendered. If a place like Germany accepts endless streams of migrants (which is what those on the left are calling for, after all everyone has a right to enjoy the benefits of living in Germany) while providing them with the same welfare benefits German citizens receive, what is going to be the end result? You don't have to be a Nobel Prize winning economist to recognize that such a system is going to implode within a relatively short period. And who will be the primary victims of such a collapse? Those left-wingers purport to speak for.

In other news:

Slovenia army to help patrol border amid migrant crisis
http://www.dw.com/en/slovenia-army-to-help-patrol-border-amid-migrant-crisis/a-18792315
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dead0man
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« Reply #727 on: October 20, 2015, 06:30:36 AM »

What's worse, is that if you dare to have a different opinion on the topic, you're a racist.  Period.  End of discussion.  The well is fully poisoned.
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Beezer
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« Reply #728 on: October 20, 2015, 07:46:11 AM »

Guess the age of this unaccompanied minor:



If you said..."in his early 30s," you may have been right but his official age is 16. Wonder how many other minors are actually in their 30s, considering that it is next to impossible to deport a minor.
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Beezer
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« Reply #729 on: October 20, 2015, 12:37:56 PM »

Now who could have seen this coming...

EU refugee relocation plan risks stalling within days: EU source
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-refugee-relocation-plan-risks-stalling-within-days-165019230.html
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #730 on: October 21, 2015, 01:00:02 AM »

Now who could have seen this coming...

EU refugee relocation plan risks stalling within days: EU source
http://news.yahoo.com/eu-refugee-relocation-plan-risks-stalling-within-days-165019230.html

Certainly not those who failed to ensure that there were enough resources in place to keep Syrian refugees largely willing to remain in Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan. Difficult to see the genie being put back into the bottle even if the resources were to be made available now.
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Beezer
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« Reply #731 on: October 21, 2015, 08:54:10 AM »

Sweden (that's right) to introduce temporary border controls: http://www.metro.se/nyheter/uppgift-sverige-infor-granskontroller/EVHoju!sPxwp0Zs2TY/
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Beezer
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« Reply #732 on: October 21, 2015, 09:28:30 AM »

Wouldn't wanna go to a sh*thole like Luxembourg either.

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swl
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« Reply #733 on: October 21, 2015, 01:15:09 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.
Or maybe they get these privileges because the weather is better: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15725.html
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DavidB.
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« Reply #734 on: October 21, 2015, 01:17:37 PM »

lmao
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ingemann
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« Reply #735 on: October 21, 2015, 04:15:04 PM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.
Or maybe they get these privileges because the weather is better: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15725.html

Really

Netherlands, Denmark and north Germany are from nature's side one giant swamp, where wheat have a hard time growing, so that we had use a weed like rye and animal feeder like barley and oat as the main crop until the potato arrived. Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Finland are even worse off. The Middle East on the other hand was one of the most fertile agricultural areas in the world. Of course that stopped after the areas conquest by Arab conquers. Egypt and Mahgreb, which feed the Roman Empire, was left to decay into poverty.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #736 on: October 22, 2015, 01:07:49 AM »

I don't think Tender understands the concept of "desserts": no one "deserves" a certain standard of living just because they happened to be born to the right parents or in the right country. That's not how "dessert" claims work. I suppose that you could claim that Europeans are rightfully entitled to a more expansive welfare state but do they deserve a strong welfare state?

Suppose that Tender believes in the concept of "collective responsibility" and, therefore, believes that the accomplishments of his ancestors and his nation warrant some "just dessert". Doesn't that open the door to claiming that Africans deserve reparations from European imperial powers or that Syrian refugees deserve to be settled in France or Turkey in particular? I'm open to considering this but I don't think that Tender cares about whether or not his claims are rational are not. The types of people who invoke "collective responsibility" to justify narrowminded nationalism never consider the necessary consequences of that claim: that if citizens deserve goods on the basis of the actions of their ancestors, that they are also responsible for the wrongs of their ancestors. UKIP voters love to claim that they "deserve" more than refugees but would never consider the justice of paying reparations to Jamaica.

Anyways, I don't believe in the notion "collective responsibility".
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #737 on: October 22, 2015, 01:17:33 AM »

They are entitled to these privileges because they worked hard to establish these welfare systems, contrary to the millions who are now lining up at the border and want to enjoy these goodies too.

Oh, I see, so Middle Easterners are just lazy freeloaders and that's why their countries don't look like Austria. Thanks for proving my point about racism.

Welfare states are a form of collective insurance. You pay into them with your taxes when you are working and you (or your children) can use them when studying, sick, unemployed, retired etc. It does create bad will when people who haven't paid the "insurance premium" gets ahead in the queue (so to speak) to fx housing or hospital treatment or too many non-payers use the systems and fx hospital waiting lists go up. You may find this selfish, but its a natural sentiment.

Tender didn't say anything about why most Middle Eastern countries malfunction (which is a complex issue).

That's an interesting view of the welfare state. While that may be the view used for electoral reasons, there's an entire philosophic tradition rooted in Anglo-American left-liberalism that has justified the welfare state on an entirely different basis. Furthermore, intellectuals in the socialist tradition have tended to make broader claims to welfare than "insurance", which is pitiful way to justify systems that are clearly not insurance but rather intended to promote "the common good" or a sense of justice.

The insurance premium argument doesn't really hold up. No one believes that a 22 year old who has suffered a terrible accident deserves care "because she paid into the system" but because she suffered bad luck. No one believes that young dislocated workers deserve unemployment benefits because "they paid into the system" but because they are human beings. I could offer more examples.

Furthermore, it's not self-evident that the sentiment that you're describing is "natural". For one, "the welfare state" isn't natural nor are nation-states or large political communities. The moral intuitions relating to these forms are obscured and hard to argue about: Germans are perfectly willing to accommodate "Volga Germans", who have never paid into the system, but are not willing to help third-generation Turks in the same way, even if "they've paid into the system". Again, there's no "natural" here, we're talking about abstract political terms and the reactions of people vary quite dramatically in every sense.

Basically, I'm calling you out for attempting to shut down a necessary conversation by using bad social science and bad political theory.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #738 on: October 22, 2015, 01:18:15 AM »

What's worse, is that if you dare to have a different opinion on the topic, you're a racist.  Period.  End of discussion.  The well is fully poisoned.

Well, you are probably are a bit bigoted but I'm still willing to have a discussion with you. Smiley
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palandio
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« Reply #739 on: October 22, 2015, 07:55:25 AM »

[...] Germans [...] are not willing to help third-generation Turks in the same way, even if "they've paid into the system". [...]
Who said that? That's a strawman. We're not talking here about "guest-workers" that we had invited to come to Germany at some point and who have entered the welfare system on the paying side (like most Turks in Germany). We're neither talking about their descendants that have been born and grown up in Germany.
We're talking about people from the whole world being entitled to go whereever they want whenever they want without having been invited (no borders, no nations) and then being entitled to enter the welfare system on the receiving side.
A European-style welfare system can only remain stable as long as not too many people at the same time enter it on the receiving side. Most Turks, ex-Yugoslavs, Greeks and Italians in Germany were at some point invited here and have consequentially entered the welfare system. There is no relevant political force that wants to push them out of the welfare system.
Most refugees have good reasons to come. Taking a fair share of refugees is a humanitarian duty. Welcoming everyone who wants to come is not.
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« Reply #740 on: October 22, 2015, 08:11:28 AM »

I'm sceptical of the idea that a large migration would undermine the welfare state. The welfare states of Europe subsidise the elderly, for the most part, not the sort of twenty-somethings that apparat to make up the bulk of this wave.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #741 on: October 22, 2015, 10:32:39 AM »
« Edited: October 24, 2015, 12:34:36 PM by Famous Mortimer »

I'm sceptical of the idea that a large migration would undermine the welfare state. The welfare states of Europe subsidise the elderly, for the most part, not the sort of twenty-somethings that apparat to make up the bulk of this wave.

Refugees are already subsidized the moment they arrive with free housing. Additionally, welfare states also subsidize children and migrants have children at a higher rate.
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ingemann
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« Reply #742 on: October 22, 2015, 11:44:28 AM »

Guess the age of this unaccompanied minor:

If you said..."in his early 30s," you may have been right but his official age is 16. Wonder how many other minors are actually in their 30s, considering that it is next to impossible to deport a minor.

In Denmark they don't get away with it, doctors can see on their bones if they're still teenagers.

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Tender Branson
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« Reply #743 on: October 22, 2015, 02:14:42 PM »

Migrant men are torching tents in Slovenia and take selfies with "victory" signs after it:



Roll Eyes

I'd take them straight to the next airport and deport them back to where they came from. I'd even be willing to pay for their ticket home if they never come back.
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ingemann
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« Reply #744 on: October 22, 2015, 03:16:13 PM »

I'm sceptical of the idea that a large migration would undermine the welfare state. The welfare states of Europe subsidise the elderly, for the most part, not the sort of twenty-somethings that apparat to make up the bulk of this wave.

It's okay to be highly critical of it, that's a ideological choice you can make. Especially when you use the word migration. Because a Polish plumber give a surplus, a Indian IT worker also give one, a Nigerian doctor is a surplus too. A unskilled or semi-skilled don't give any surplus to any state with a functional welfare state, especially not if they're refugees. The Danish office of statistics keep an eye on both crime and employment rate of immigrant groups, and there the Muslim group with the highest employment rate (age 30-60) are Turks with 53,1 (versus a ethnic Danish rate of 82,3) refugees have a much lower employment rate with Somalians having a employment rate of 27,6 and Syrians the lowest one at 22,8 (and in these numbers new refugees are not counted).
Non-Muslim immigrants all have a higher employment rate.

Second generation have a significant under employment too, with Turks again scoring best with only 16,5 percent points under employement (age 20-39), while Libanese (Palestinians) score the worst with 41,2 under employment. As comparison Poles lies the lowest with 2,4 while among European immigrants British descendent score the worst with 11,3 under employement.

As criminality (all types from speeding to murder) Muslims overrepresented (even if we look at social economic status). From Bosniaks who score best at 118 (111) to Lebanese who score the worst at 308 (254). Of course a interesting aspect here is that among Muslims immigrants are more criminal than refugees (with the Lebanese and Somalians as the exceptions). It can best be seen at Pakistanian 202 (179) vs. Afghans 145 (123) or Yugoslavs 217 (192) vs. Bosniaks 118 (111).

As for EU immigrants they all score lower than native Danes 95 (98), which seem weird when East Europeans are overrepresented in Danish prisons, but this is because crime by these groups are mostly commited by visiting criminal not immigrants.

Phillipines, Indians and Chinese have the lowest rates of all at around 50 for all three groups.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #745 on: October 22, 2015, 03:19:50 PM »

Migrant men are torching tents in Slovenia and take selfies with "victory" signs after it:



Roll Eyes

I'd take them straight to the next airport and deport them back to where they came from. I'd even be willing to pay for their ticket home if they never come back.

Didn't they come to Europe to escape violence and destruction?
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #746 on: October 22, 2015, 03:23:59 PM »

Migrant men are torching tents in Slovenia and take selfies with "victory" signs after it:



Roll Eyes

I'd take them straight to the next airport and deport them back to where they came from. I'd even be willing to pay for their ticket home if they never come back.

Didn't they come to Europe to escape violence and destruction?

Yes, and instead some have nothing better to do than torching tents offered to them by "bad, 3rd world Slovenia", because ... well ... "CAN'T WAIT, MUST GO TO PROMISED LAND GERMANY IMMEDIATELY !"

Ordinary, hard-working, common-sense Europeans are just shaking their heads at these pictures and at the violent mobs who bring their war with them.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #747 on: October 22, 2015, 03:33:39 PM »

I'm sceptical of the idea that a large migration would undermine the welfare state. The welfare states of Europe subsidise the elderly, for the most part, not the sort of twenty-somethings that apparat to make up the bulk of this wave.

It's okay to be highly critical of it, that's a ideological choice you can make. Especially when you use the word migration. Because a Polish plumber give a surplus, a Indian IT worker also give one, a Nigerian doctor is a surplus too. A unskilled or semi-skilled don't give any surplus to any state with a functional welfare state, especially not if they're refugees. The Danish office of statistics keep an eye on both crime and employment rate of immigrant groups, and there the Muslim group with the highest employment rate (age 30-60) are Turks with 53,1 (versus a ethnic Danish rate of 82,3) refugees have a much lower employment rate with Somalians having a employment rate of 27,6 and Syrians the lowest one at 22,8 (and in these numbers new refugees are not counted).
Non-Muslim immigrants all have a higher employment rate.

Second generation have a significant under employment too, with Turks again scoring best with only 16,5 percent points under employement (age 20-39), while Libanese (Palestinians) score the worst with 41,2 under employment. As comparison Poles lies the lowest with 2,4 while among European immigrants British descendent score the worst with 11,3 under employement.

As criminality (all types from speeding to murder) Muslims overrepresented (even if we look at social economic status). From Bosniaks who score best at 118 (111) to Lebanese who score the worst at 308 (254). Of course a interesting aspect here is that among Muslims immigrants are more criminal than refugees (with the Lebanese and Somalians as the exceptions). It can best be seen at Pakistanian 202 (179) vs. Afghans 145 (123) or Yugoslavs 217 (192) vs. Bosniaks 118 (111).

As for EU immigrants they all score lower than native Danes 95 (98), which seem weird when East Europeans are overrepresented in Danish prisons, but this is because crime by these groups are mostly commited by visiting criminal not immigrants.

Phillipines, Indians and Chinese have the lowest rates of all at around 50 for all three groups.

Thanks for posting these statistics.

In Austria and Germany, authorities in recent years have moved to abolish the classification of crime or homicide statistics by citizenship.

Until about 10 years ago, the crime report would read "foreigners committed x% of murders" and "citizens committed x% of crime" and so on.

Now, they decided to just publish overall numbers on crime because breaking it down by foreigners/citizens is "too politically incorrect".

The last numbers available before the censorship showed that foreigners in Austria committed 30-40% of the murders, while only making up 10% of the population during the timespan.
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Storebought
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« Reply #748 on: October 22, 2015, 11:28:48 PM »

The most recent posts in this thread are utter garbage and disgrace this website.

Why hasn't it been locked for topic derailment (at the very least) already?
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Beezer
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« Reply #749 on: October 23, 2015, 03:54:49 AM »

How is posting data on employment and a picture of migrants taking selfies while burning down their camp a disgrace? Can't handle the truth, eh?
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