Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented
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  Politics and Elections in the Netherlands: coalition agreement presented
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DavidB.
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« Reply #425 on: September 23, 2016, 08:40:55 AM »
« edited: September 23, 2016, 01:57:27 PM by Marco Danger »

I agree. 40 seats is a bit much though: they really maxed out in 2012 because of the two-horse race, and the broken election promises in 2012 have left some PVV-VVD swing voters really pissed off; many of them will not even consider the VVD this time around. However, I could easily see the VVD win something like 34-37 seats. The mood is very positive for the VVD, and they are excellent at campaigning, much better than all the other parties. Rutte's "pleur op" remark (and other parties' outrage over that) already did a great job at giving right-wing voters the subconscious impression that the VVD care more about security than about political correctness, whatever that even means, and that will be valuable in an election campaign focused on security issues. Of course this remark has no policy consequences whatsoever, so it's an incredibly easy way to court voters, but we both know that's how Dutch politics works...
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CrabCake
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« Reply #426 on: September 23, 2016, 08:51:14 AM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 08:52:53 AM by ClintonianCake »

If the PVV underperform, could we see a post-Wilders populist-right start to appear? I mean it seems like he is really the sticking point in terms of gaining respectable support and coalition building. (Especially the parties huge underperformance at local levels)
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DavidB.
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« Reply #427 on: September 23, 2016, 08:59:51 AM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 09:01:58 AM by Marco Danger »

If the PVV underperform, could we see a post-Wilders populist-right start to appear? I mean it seems like he is really the sticking point in terms of gaining respectable support and coalition building.
I'm not quite sure I really understand what you mean. The PVV are (or rather: Geert Wilders is) still an extremely strong "brand" among their potential voters and they have a rather high floor in terms of seats. I am skeptical about the potential success of an alternative to the PVV, especially after witnessing the failure of the trainwreck that is VNL. Due to the mere presence of the PVV, the VVD have to move to the right all the time in order to court VVD-PVV swing voters. So even while perpetually in opposition, the PVV exert a certain degree of influence on policy. That said, people may stop believing Wilders, just like Flemish voters stopped believing Vlaams Belang when it was in opposition for too long. If the PVV does not change course, I doubt it will be around in ten years (though an alternative to the/this PVV certainly will). But for now, Wilders will stick around regardless of the election result. It is not as if he has many other options in life by now. And as long as he sticks around, I don't think there is any space for another populist right-wing party or movement.
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« Reply #428 on: September 23, 2016, 09:00:09 AM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 09:02:52 AM by JosepBroz »

If the PVV underperform, could we see a post-Wilders populist-right start to appear? I mean it seems like he is really the sticking point in terms of gaining respectable support and coalition building. (Especially the parties huge underperformance at local levels)

It doesn't underperform at the local level. It simply decides not to stand at a local level, except The Hague and Almere, where it performs well. Most big cities have a PVV equivalent half-endorsed by Wilders.

We talked about the durability of such a party system (a party that has two members remember, both of them being Geert Wilders), and while I thought that the PVV would implode I now think Wilders' image is so anti-establishment and er, deplorable, it works far more effectively than the "intellectual" right-populism of VNL, especially with the tokkies, white supremacists, and anti-Scheveningen peripheral regions.

His program for the election is a total shambles compared to the last one though.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #429 on: September 23, 2016, 09:06:48 AM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 09:20:14 AM by Marco Danger »

His program for the election is a total shambles compared to the last one though.
It was not his election program but only a "concept election program" aka media stunt. They will doubtlessly come up with a larger election program, which is, indeed, going to be more radical than the 2012 one. I don't know if you ever read the 2012 one, but frankly, that one was already rather embarrassing in terms of style ("bye bye, wind turbines!"). Amusing for sure, but parties should take their voters seriously; that election manifesto was an insult to any and all readers.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by anti-Scheveningen, but the term Scheveningen is certainly not used as pars pro toto for The Hague Wink Scheveningen is actually known as a working-class part of The Hague (though it has extremely rich neighborhoods too), containing some of the most pro-PVV neighborhoods in the entire country, Duindorp being one of the rare pockets of actual white supremacist support in NL. People in certain peripheral (and non-peripheral) areas dislike "The Hague", but when thinking of Scheveningen they will think of the pier and the beach Smiley

I largely agree with the rest of your post.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #430 on: September 23, 2016, 12:35:19 PM »

Meanwhile, a D66 initiative to introduce a pilot in which municipalities have the right to coordinate the legal production of weed now appears to have a majority in parliament. VNL announced that it had changed its position, presumably because their new party leader Jan Roos likes to blaze it. This initiative, which will likely be discussed soon, would open the door to changing the current status-quo (which has existed since the 70s) on the basis of which weed can be sold legally in so-called coffeeshops, yet cannot be produced legally. This, in turn, would be a step toward the full legalization of the entire production and sales process of weed. However, it is doubtful whether the initiative will pass in the increasingly important Senate: the proponents of the law (PvdA, SP, D66, GL, PvdD, 50Plus, VNL, DENK) do not have a majority in the upper house.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #431 on: September 23, 2016, 12:38:25 PM »

And this is the reason why VVD-CDA-D66 are in deep sh**t if they don't have a majority with CU, SGP and 50Plus. In that case, a Belgian scenario cannot be ruled out, although I must say the flexibility of Dutch politicians after elections never ceases to amaze me. But yes, getting GL or PvdA on board to sustain such a right-wing government (at least on the economy) from the outside is really not going to happen. Basically, the larger the PVV becomes, the harder government formation will be. But regarding Rutte, I don't think there is an alternative to a coalition based on VVD-CDA-D66. Even in the event of a snap election in October 2017, triggered by a government formation crisis, I am not convinced Rutte would have to step down.

A few questions:

1) I thought SGP were a testimonial party? Or does that only apply to participating in cabinets?

2) The impression I get from most of European politics is that the cordon sanitaire outweighs economic concerns in forming government. What makes Dutch politics different?

3) Forgive me if you've explained this before, but why are you, a not particularly socially conservative Jew, voting for SGP?
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DavidB.
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« Reply #432 on: September 23, 2016, 12:55:30 PM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 01:10:08 PM by Marco Danger »

1) I thought SGP were a testimonial party? Or does that only apply to participating in cabinets?
It is highly unlikely that the SGP will actually participate in a government, but I would say that the SGP has moved from being a "testimonial party" without actual influence toward a party that does seek to exert influence. The current political fragmentation simply enables the party to do so. In the past, governments had majorities in the upper house and the lower house, leaving little room for bargaining to parties outside the government. Outside the parliamentary arena, however, broad consensus was sought among various interest groups (unions etc.) on any changes regarding the socio-economic status quo. Nowadays, however, coalitions are much more fragile and the SGP's seats have suddenly come to matter. I would say it is not the SGP that has changed, but political reality. During the Rutte-I minority government we saw that the SGP was willing to lend the government a helping hand, but at the same time it has its own demands, and if these demands were not met, support was not guaranteed. The SGP is currently a "constructive opposition party" necessary for senatorial majorities in various policy areas and would be a likely potential partner for any minority government in need of support.

2) The impression I get from most of European politics is that the cordon sanitaire outweighs economic concerns in forming government. What makes Dutch politics different?
There is no official cordon sanitaire in the Netherlands. Belgium is the only European country in which an official cordon sanitaire against the radical right exists, and to a certain degree one could say that the Sweden Democrats and AfD have been "ostracized" to the extent that one can speak of a cordon sanitaire too (at least on the national level), but that is not the case in the Netherlands. Parties currently rule out the possibility to govern with the PVV, but the VVD would be willing to change that stance in the event that the PVV moderates its views. Currently, however, the PVV are simply too far away ideologically from the other parties to be a partner in government cooperation.

3) Forgive me if you've explained this before, but why are you, a not particularly socially conservative Jew, voting for SGP?
I'm saying I'm inclined to vote for the SGP, but I haven't decided yet. I did vote for the SGP in the Provincial election (and thereby, more importantly, for the Senate) and have no regrets. The SGP do what they say. You know what to expect from them, and what not to expect. There is no party I fully agree with. Indeed, the SGP's views on "social issues" are not exactly mine, but at the same time their worldview doesn't really bother me and their position on many of these issues is either not all that bad or simply irrelevant. I don't think euthanasia should become even easier than it is now, gay rights have been fully realized politically and nothing is going to change in that regard, I am pro-life, and while I think weed should be legal I ultimately don't think this is a very important issue, particularly so in a country where weed is cheaper and sometimes easier to buy than wine. On most other issues, they are spot on: right-wing economically but in a socially conscious way, critical of immigration and the EU without getting "off the rails", as pro-Israel as it could possibly get (anti-2SS), and in favor of religious freedom, including on issues such as ritual slaughter and circumcision. It's pretty good and they never disappointed me: you know what you're going to get. But, as I said, I am not sure about it yet.

Most religious Jews (not that there are many) in the Netherlands vote SGP or VVD.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #433 on: September 23, 2016, 02:51:46 PM »

If the PVV underperform, could we see a post-Wilders populist-right start to appear? I mean it seems like he is really the sticking point in terms of gaining respectable support and coalition building.
I'm not quite sure I really understand what you mean. The PVV are (or rather: Geert Wilders is) still an extremely strong "brand" among their potential voters and they have a rather high floor in terms of seats. I am skeptical about the potential success of an alternative to the PVV, especially after witnessing the failure of the trainwreck that is VNL. Due to the mere presence of the PVV, the VVD have to move to the right all the time in order to court VVD-PVV swing voters. So even while perpetually in opposition, the PVV exert a certain degree of influence on policy. That said, people may stop believing Wilders, just like Flemish voters stopped believing Vlaams Belang when it was in opposition for too long. If the PVV does not change course, I doubt it will be around in ten years (though an alternative to the/this PVV certainly will). But for now, Wilders will stick around regardless of the election result. It is not as if he has many other options in life by now. And as long as he sticks around, I don't think there is any space for another populist right-wing party or movement.

I'll try to rephrase, I guess. The PVV (Wilders) is effectively unable to gain power (and seemingly disinterested in doing so after their experience with Rutte 1 - one could troll and claim they are the last testimonial party left). I understand that suits Wilders, but surely some of his lieutenants or subordinates (who can't all be autonomous drones) get irritated that the party is effectively capped in its support? Especially if they look at parties like the FPO or DPP that are effectively becoming part of the government furniture in all levels of government.

Now that I think about it, is there a heir apparent to succeed Wilders as Populist right leader?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #434 on: September 23, 2016, 03:43:43 PM »

If the PVV underperform, could we see a post-Wilders populist-right start to appear? I mean it seems like he is really the sticking point in terms of gaining respectable support and coalition building.
I'm not quite sure I really understand what you mean. The PVV are (or rather: Geert Wilders is) still an extremely strong "brand" among their potential voters and they have a rather high floor in terms of seats. I am skeptical about the potential success of an alternative to the PVV, especially after witnessing the failure of the trainwreck that is VNL. Due to the mere presence of the PVV, the VVD have to move to the right all the time in order to court VVD-PVV swing voters. So even while perpetually in opposition, the PVV exert a certain degree of influence on policy. That said, people may stop believing Wilders, just like Flemish voters stopped believing Vlaams Belang when it was in opposition for too long. If the PVV does not change course, I doubt it will be around in ten years (though an alternative to the/this PVV certainly will). But for now, Wilders will stick around regardless of the election result. It is not as if he has many other options in life by now. And as long as he sticks around, I don't think there is any space for another populist right-wing party or movement.

I'll try to rephrase, I guess. The PVV (Wilders) is effectively unable to gain power (and seemingly disinterested in doing so after their experience with Rutte 1 - one could troll and claim they are the last testimonial party left). I understand that suits Wilders, but surely some of his lieutenants or subordinates (who can't all be autonomous drones) get irritated that the party is effectively capped in its support? Especially if they look at parties like the FPO or DPP that are effectively becoming part of the government furniture in all levels of government.

Now that I think about it, is there a heir apparent to succeed Wilders as Populist right leader?

PVV only has 2 members, Wilders and a foundation controlled by Wilders.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #435 on: September 23, 2016, 04:29:27 PM »
« Edited: September 23, 2016, 04:50:48 PM by Flawless Beautiful Marco Danger »

I'll try to rephrase, I guess. The PVV (Wilders) is effectively unable to gain power (and seemingly disinterested in doing so after their experience with Rutte 1 - one could troll and claim they are the last testimonial party left). I understand that suits Wilders, but surely some of his lieutenants or subordinates (who can't all be autonomous drones) get irritated that the party is effectively capped in its support? Especially if they look at parties like the FPO or DPP that are effectively becoming part of the government furniture in all levels of government.

Now that I think about it, is there a heir apparent to succeed Wilders as Populist right leader?
This happened countless times already, and it seems clear that everyone who leaves loses. Wilders' personal "brand" is simply too strong for others to try and form a successful, more moderate populist right-wing party. Hero Brinkman left and tried it, Van Klaveren and Bontes left and formed VNL and tried it (and they could perhaps win 1-2 seats, but that's almost irrelevant)... It seems people don't want a watered down copy, people want the real thing. Funnily enough, former MP Wim Kortenoeven's departure from the PVV may have hurt the party the most.

Kortenoeven is close to the Jewish community and could not live with the fact that the party wanted a ban on unstunned ritual slaughter (now they want to ban it altogether, even if the animals are stunned, which is even weirder and reeks of bullying). What did it in was the fact that total loony MP Dion Graus made remarks that can be considered classic anti-Semitic, something like "Jews like to torture animals." So Kortenoeven voted against the proposal, left the party, went straight to America and told all the American Jewish PVV donors about what had happened. This all happened just before the 2012 election. Dutch regulation doesn't require parties to be transparent about their sources of financing but it's safe to say Dion Graus has cost the PVV a lot of money. Since he's stupid and crazy (and a wifebeater) and not someone you really want to have around, many people suspect Graus knows something about Wilders that should remain a secret -- for shutting up, Graus can be a moron, talk about animal rights and stay on as an MP. (Of course this is all totally irrelevant to what you asked, but it is a funny anecdote, I think.)

Many people left the party, but none have actually been able to set up anything successful. Toppling Wilders from within is impossible, mainly because of the party structure (MaxQue mentioned it already). Wilders is extremely afraid of others undermining his position to the extent that he is sometimes portrayed as a little dictator. Books have been written about the internal relations within the PVV, and the party sometimes truly comes across as a cult. That is not strange, because you leave everything behind when you start becoming active for the PVV: people lose friends over it, know they won't be able to find a job afterwards anymore, etc. PVV politicians receive a lot of threats too. It all requires a certain level of devotion (and awe for the party leader) that simply isn't necessary to work for (or be a politician in) other parties. By now, I think everyone who would really want to undermine Wilders' position has left already (especially after the "fewer Moroccans" speech, which was not discussed with anyone before and led to a lot of people leaving).

People within the PVV also seem to be convinced that they are absolutely doing the right thing. They are not fazed by the fact that the party is led in what can be considered a shockingly ineffective way (by which I mean that the party could have exerted a lot more influence over policy by moderating style and substance). Of course, there is a lot of group think at play here, especially given the circumstances I just referred to. I don't know what they have in mind -- do they think other parties will eventually come around, do they think they will end up winning so many seats other parties simply cannot make policy without them, or do they simply think they are "doing the right thing" by "telling it like it is" and that (indeed, completely in the fashion of a testimonial party) futilities like power and influence over policy don't matter? Perhaps the fact that PVV MPs earn a lot of money also plays a role (remember they will probably never be able to find a job elsewhere). Maybe they don't care anymore. At any rate, the fact of the matter is that Wilders can basically do whatever he wants. The Dutch left should really feel blessed over the fact that the PVV has become so radical and thereby rendered itself largely irrelevant. And as I said, this is unlikely to change as long as Wilders sticks around. And there is no heir apparent.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #436 on: September 23, 2016, 06:17:25 PM »

Apparently, former PVV MPs leaked internal PVV e-mails to the Algemeen Dagblad. I have translated some of the conclusions.

"Fleur Agema is deputy parliamentary group leader and, according to insiders, she has descended in the hierarchy. In e-mails seen by AD, Wilders depicts her as "stupider than stupid". Martin Bosma, for a long time his main confidant, appears to have made himself less popular with Wilders when Bosma - against Wilders' wishes - published his book on South Africa. "Watch out with Martin Bosma," Wilders e-mailed a fellow PVV MP at the time. Both Agema and Bosma were overtaken in the hierarchy by former civil servant Sietse Fritsma - currently deputy parliamentary group leader - and Barry Madlener. Reportedly, Madlener serves as "handyman" to make sure MPs vote along with Wilders: in the past, rebellion occurred on a regular basis - think of Hero Brinkman, Louis Bontes, or Marcial Hernandez. Wilders' esteem of his MPs, however, does not seem to have increased. He regularly describes them as "fools, all of them", the e-mails show. It is mainly the women in the PVV who suffer from this. Not only Agema, but also Reinette Klever and Lilian Helder. In an e-mail, Wilders describes Helder as "crazy enough" to leave the parliamentary group. One of Wilders' confidants scornfully talks about the women in the PVV, who would have "hormonal changes and mood swings." The complaint about Reinette Klever is that she would "cry too much and often says she wants to quit.""
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« Reply #437 on: September 24, 2016, 02:24:49 AM »
« Edited: September 24, 2016, 02:26:33 AM by JosepBroz »

The Dutch Left can also be blessed than such a party is taking so many seats off the traditional right-wing parties. The Left is the ultimate boogey man for those voters though. South of the border, the N-VA - who recently seem hellbent on becoming the Flemish equivalent of VVD in all but name - went into the last election saying a vote for Vlaams Belang, our extreme right, was a vote for keeping the Walloon PS in government. Given the 8-9% swing from VB to N-VA, expect a similar strategy from Rutte.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #438 on: September 24, 2016, 05:48:40 AM »

Would you be willing to open a similar thread about politics in Belgium, JosepBroz? That could be extremely interesting. I know too little about current developments in Belgian politics.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #439 on: September 24, 2016, 10:45:56 AM »
« Edited: February 16, 2017, 07:58:16 PM by DavidB. »

The Dutch Left can also be blessed than such a party is taking so many seats off the traditional right-wing parties.
Interesting observation. I made some calculations on the basis of this idea.

VVD+CDA ("traditional right-wing parties"*):
1989: 66
1994: 65
1998: 67 (no radical right)
2002: 67 (+/-, even if the LPF gained 26 seats -- i.e. CDA+LPF+VVD won 94 seats here)
2003: 72 (+5; LPF collapse to 8 seats)
2006: 63 (-9; LPF to 0 but PVV to 9, radical right to +1; VVD+PVV+CDA to 72)
2010: 52 (-11; PVV to 24; VVD+PVV+CDA from 72 to 76)
2012: 54 (+2; PVV to 15; VVD+PVV+CDA from 76 to 69)

It is interesting that the LPF surge in 2002 did not hurt CDA+VVD at all. CDA+VVD achieved their best result in 2003 and were hurt by the emergence of the PVV. However, it seems that the 2006 collapse of the traditional right cannot be explained entirely by the PVV: the LPF had won 8 seats in 2003 too, so the radical right was only at +1 and the traditional right at -9 in the 2006 election. The 2010 losses of the "traditional right" are the losses of the CDA, which largely went directly to the PVV, so this can definitely be attributed to the PVV. The PVV losses in 2012 hardly helped the traditional right, though: radical right at -9, traditional right only at +2.

So yes, we can conclude that the PVV has taken seats off the traditional right-wing parties. However, the score of the combined right has gone slightly up, since the radical right has also taken seats from the left.

CDA+VVD+PVV/LPF ("Traditional right + radical right"):
1989: 66
1994: 65 (but 3 seats for extreme right CD)
1998: 67 (no radical right)
2002: 94 (LPF surge)
2003: 72 (LPF collapse)
2006: 72 (LPF gone, PVV in)
2010: 76
2012: 69

Without taking into account the exceptional year of 2002, we see that the combined right (excluding CU and its predecessors + SGP) has gone from a 65-67ish number of seats to something in 69-76ish territory. Once coalition formation with the radical right is impossible and the radical right takes seats from the traditional right, this, indeed, means that the "share of the cake" of non-right parties in a coalition becomes higher and that the way to a CDA-VVD only coalition (like in 1982-1989) is absolutely closed off. At the same time you have to wonder if it matters when D66 has turned sharply to the right on economic issues. Let's look at the development of actual left-wing parties.

PvdA+GL+SP ("Combined left"):
1989: 55
1994: 44 (D66 surge from 12 to 24 in this election, mainly at the expense of the left)
1998: 71 (D66 -10 cannot solely explain this; turnout dropped by 5 points and reached an all-time low in this election -- maybe it plays a role? Usually one would assume lower turnout benefits the right...)
2002: 42 (and D66 also -7; it is clear that the LPF won a surprising amount of otherwise left-wing voters, presumably mainly PvdA voters; turnout +7 also plays a role here, though)
2003: 59 (back to normalcy)
2006: 65 (and D66 -3, partly explaining the growth of the left; otherwise, the SP won a lot of former non-voters in this high-turnout election)
2010: 55 (and D66 +7; still, it is likely at least some left-wing voters went to the PVV, even if this does not amount to a large number of seats)
2012: 57 (and D66 +2)

On the basis of this calculation one can conclude that D66 should have been included Tongue While there is not much voter movement between SP and D66, a collapse of D66 generally benefits the left and vice versa. What is interesting to see is that the LPF hurt the combined left a lot more than the PVV. "Normalcy", for the combined left, seems to be the high-mid-50s. At the same time, a lot of swings occur.

We can conclude that JosepBroz was right in saying that the PVV is taking off many seats of the traditional right while not really changing the situation on the left -- though it remains to be seen if this will change in the next election: polls indicate that SP 2012 voters did move to the PVV this time around. Because a) a coalition between the traditional right and the radical right has become impossible for ideological-distance reasons and b) the traditional right cannot form a government solely consisting of CDA and VVD anymore (though, to be fair, this was impossible in the 90s too, see calculations), the position of non-right (which often means: "left") parties has become more important at least theoretically. We see it in the current government: VVD with 7 ministers, PvdA with 6; VVD with 3 deputy ministers, PvdA with 4. The left has a larger "share of the cake" in the current government than in parliament. One could also assume that this "stronger" position of the combined left would lead to more influence over policy at least when it comes to government decisions; on decisions taken by parliament, however, the balance has shifted to the right because of the fact that traditional right + radical right now are larger than the traditional right was before. It is also good to take into account that the radical right does not always vote along with the traditional right; the PVV often votes along with the left on issues like healthcare. If it were not for the PVV, right-wing economic policies would have passed parliament and the Senate more often.

This, however, ignores the fact that the radical right pulls political discourse and, indeed, all other parties to the right on its pet issues. It also ignores the fact that the PvdA has not really pursued many "left-wing" things in government. Perhaps we should simply conclude that for all the changes in parties' number of seats, very little has actually changed in terms of policy.


*traditionally, the CDA cannot really be seen as a right-wing party (the Netherlands doesn't do the "non-socialist = right-wing" thing) and while this is irrelevant to the point, I still wanted to mention this. It used to be a centrist party, but it has moved to the right under Lubbers and under Balkenende.
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« Reply #440 on: September 24, 2016, 02:28:24 PM »

Would you be willing to open a similar thread about politics in Belgium, JosepBroz? That could be extremely interesting. I know too little about current developments in Belgian politics.

Yes, for sure I will do some, but in terms of what is going on now in Belgium things are relatively quiet, largely because everybody seems to be in some form of power apart from the Greens, the fascists and the communists - all of which will likely benefit next election.
I was going to start by looking at the referendum on whether we should have retained the King post-war (very interesting divide between republicans and royalists), then look at the Vlaams Beweging's rise and fall and rise again under De Wever, in tandem with the Frenchisation of Brussels and explaining the PS supremacy in Wallonia. Im currently moving though so I will write it at the time im settled.

Good post above btw, some proper political theory. I read an economics/political science paper on the subject of tactical voting and game theory in the Netherlands in relation to the Left/Right divide and how it functioned in the 2012 election. I'll try and post it here as its applicable to most PR systems.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #441 on: September 24, 2016, 05:48:33 PM »

Sounds great! Who are the authors of that paper, and what is the title?
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Zinneke
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« Reply #442 on: September 25, 2016, 11:45:16 AM »
« Edited: July 10, 2017, 07:45:07 AM by Rogier »

I didn't really know Baudet or his movement. He's likely self-promoting if he doesn't want to join VNL though. That picture says as much.

A lot of N-VAers go or have gone to the Ijzsewakke, its no big deal. It does help you distinguish between the ones who are clearly pro-independence and VB-lite cordon sanitaire avoiders, like Bourgeois, Francken and Jambon, and then the N-VAers who "don't have a hard on for Flemish Independence" like Siegried Bracke and the other public intellegentsia in the party who don't attend. But in all seriousness I wouldn't necessarily call the people who go to IJzerwake fascist, just historically illiterate and sharing the same platform as the clear neo-Nazi's and neo-fascists. But as much as I dislike the right-wing of the Vlaamse Beweging and admire the forgotten left of its Movement, I can't in good faith start calling them all fascists like the PS do.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #443 on: September 25, 2016, 12:35:20 PM »
« Edited: September 25, 2016, 12:38:44 PM by Flawless Beautiful Marco Danger »

... this proves why we need a thread on Belgian politics. I didn't even know there were any people in the N-VA who are open about not giving a damn about Flemish independence. Very interesting. Not that it's a surprise to me, because they're working hard to simply become a center-right catch-all party without any principles (provided that they ever had them). I also didn't say everyone who attends the IJzerwake is a fascist (Baudet, for one, is certainly not), but the event itself has a certain "brown" feel to it, doesn't it?
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« Reply #444 on: September 26, 2016, 12:35:17 PM »
« Edited: September 26, 2016, 12:39:19 PM by JosepBroz »

Well, yes, as it split off from some other ceremony over historical details abouut the extent of Flemish collaboration, which is a tough political cookie. The Vlaamse Beweging spent years trying to rectify the image of your average flamingant due to what happened in WW2, but they did this through different methods : some acknowledged that the Flemish Movement as  a whole was at fault, while others said they had no choice, it wasn't that bad, or it was a long time ago etc. These latter ones are usually the ones who tred the thin line of the IJzerwake, as they also honour some dead Flemish soldiers from the Eastern Front (fighting for the ''Moffen''). And then you have the 1488 Hitler-cultists from organisations like Voorpost - which I imagine you know all to well.

If you want to distinguish between the Flamingants, you can also look at what Flemish Lion they wave. Like the Senyera in Catalonia, each one has a particular significance.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #445 on: September 28, 2016, 11:03:16 AM »

In response to this summer's unrest among Turkish communities in the Netherlands, allegedly fueled by Turkish mosques, a parliamentary plurality seek to stop the financing of mosques by the Turkish state, in line with Austria's decision to do this. Most Turkish mosques in the Netherlands are run by Diyanet, a Turkish government organization that falls under the Ministry of Religious Affairs. CDA leader Buma wrote the motion, which was supported by VVD, PVV, ChristenUnie, SGP and VNL. The motion "condemns the long arm of Ankara" and calls on the government to limit the number of people with both a Turkish and Dutch nationality (good luck with that...). Prime Minister Rutte already said it will be difficult to limit Diyanet's influence because of the freedom of religion, so it is doubtful anything will actually happen. Next week, Deputy PM Asscher will present a letter in which he lays out the possibilities of tackling the "problematic" foreign financing of religious organizations in the Netherlands.

A plurality also want the government to make the EU end Turkey's EU accession benefits.
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mvd10
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« Reply #446 on: October 07, 2016, 12:24:13 AM »
« Edited: October 07, 2016, 12:34:55 AM by mvd10 »

So, a few points from the VVD manifesto (which will be presented in a few hours):

€1 billion more for defense
€10 billion in tax cuts for households and businesses
mandatory lessons about Dutch values (LGBT rights, gender equality, separation of church and state) for immigrants

GDP is roughly €700 billion so the tax cuts will be like 1.5% of GDP (actually that's roughly the size of the Bush tax cuts for American readers) and the extra defense money will be 0.15% of GDP (but defense spending still will be nowhere near the NATO target). These are just a few points Rutte gave away, the actual manifesto will contain much more. 10 billion in tax cuts is quite ambitious and the extra money for defense is needed, so I like it so far. According to the CPB increased spending or tax cuts needs to be matched equally with tax hikes or spending cuts so they have to pay for it through spending cuts (or tax hikes).
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« Reply #447 on: October 07, 2016, 05:09:51 AM »

I think these are points that many people will like, but I'm still not sure how many people will trust the VVD. It's very obvious that the VVD steers to the right before the election, in an effort to draw away support for the PVV. In the campaign that will be an issue for opposition parties. If the CDA had a charismatic leader, the votes would be up for grabs. Maybe D'66 will profit the most, when they see a chance to profile themselves as the 'real liberal party'. For now, I still think most people will buy it, because of the PM-bonus and because Rutte is pretty good in debates. Today the VVD used the term 'silent majority', in an effort to gain votes among middleclass voters. Also, they talk much about values ('normen en waarden'), a theme that used to belong to the CDA. 

Yesterday DENK launched a plan to fight racism and discrimination. One important part of the plan is the forming of a racism-policeforce. They also want to change names of streets that refer to national heroes like Michiel de Ruyter of J.P. Coen. I think these crazy plans will make this party even less attractive for many voters. They might end up with 1 or 2 seats.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #448 on: October 07, 2016, 07:01:41 PM »
« Edited: October 07, 2016, 08:58:15 PM by DavidB. »

Yesterday DENK launched a plan to fight racism and discrimination. One important part of the plan is the forming of a racism-policeforce. They also want to change names of streets that refer to national heroes like Michiel de Ruyter of J.P. Coen. I think these crazy plans will make this party even less attractive for many voters. They might end up with 1 or 2 seats.
Obviously the tactic is to attract media attention in order to improve name recognition and popularity among voters with an immigrant background. The racism police is probably a more serious idea, but the street name thing is basically bait and the media love to take it. DENK are simply employing PVV tactics on the other side of the political spectrum; consider the street names the equivalent of the PVV's proposed Qur'an ban. People who are turned off by their shenanigans would never vote DENK in the first place and are not the party's target audience.

As for the VVD's election manifesto, it was surprisingly different from last time. In 2012 they simply went for the PVV light thing, but it makes sense for the VVD to try and distinguish themselves more from the PVV in an election where VVD and PVV find themselves in a head-to-head race; copy cats generally lose because people prefer the original brand. I found all the VVD's talk about the "optimistic majority" to be slightly cringeworthy, but it will probably work wonders with many voters together with Rutte's enthusiasm, particularly since Wilders does come across as overly negative and angry, and who doesn't like optimism instead? Then there is the norms and values talking point, which fits perfectly with the VVD's new brand and will help at keeping aboard generic right-wing voters who opted for the CDA in the 2000s and before. In terms of content there were not a lot of surprises in the manifesto, except for the fact that the false pretenses of the VVD masquerading as some sort of PVV light, for which many people fell in 2012, have been dropped to an extent I had not expected.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #449 on: October 13, 2016, 08:43:24 AM »

Deputy Prime Minister Lodewijk Asscher will soon declare his candidacy for the PvdA leadership, public broadcaster NOS just announced. He will face current party leader Diederik Samsom and contrarian PvdA MP Jacques Monasch.
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