Who really supports 'family values'?

[Colin]

Frankly, I have always found the "family values" argument to be a straw man. I do not think that the institution of marriage will be ruined by gay people getting married. If heterosexuals say "hey, let's not get married because gay people can do it too!", I already question how strong the "institution" is.

While it's true that family values can only be strengthed by allowing gay marriage, I just figured that this was a way of showing that people who think that family values would be effected by gay marriage are not thinking straight.

I personally don't know why people actually give a sh**t, pardon my language, about "family values". Most people can't define them, they have no bearing on the overall well-being of the country, and the two words basically mean nothing, at least to me. Give me an argument about how it would help personal freedoms or how it would help the economy and I think I, and I hope most people, would be more receptive to the idea. By invoking the name of "family values" all you are doing is trying to cause conflict since "family values" is almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder. My parents have much different ideas about what "family values" are from their parents. So by saying that gay marriage would be upholding "family values" would be prone to just as much bickering and squabbling as saying that a consumption tax would help the poor. Bad way to try to make people see your side of the argument only good if you want to argue with people and insult them.

[Hatman 🍁]

Frankly, I have always found the "family values" argument to be a straw man. I do not think that the institution of marriage will be ruined by gay people getting married. If heterosexuals say "hey, let's not get married because gay people can do it too!", I already question how strong the "institution" is.

While it's true that family values can only be strengthed by allowing gay marriage, I just figured that this was a way of showing that people who think that family values would be effected by gay marriage are not thinking straight.

I personally don't know why people actually give a sh**t, pardon my language, about "family values". Most people can't define them, they have no bearing on the overall well-being of the country, and the two words basically mean nothing, at least to me. Give me an argument about how it would help personal freedoms or how it would help the economy and I think I, and I hope most people, would be more receptive to the idea. By invoking the name of "family values" all you are doing is trying to cause conflict since "family values" is almost entirely in the eyes of the beholder. My parents have much different ideas about what "family values" are from their parents. So by saying that gay marriage would be upholding "family values" would be prone to just as much bickering and squabbling as saying that a consumption tax would help the poor. Bad way to try to make people see your side of the argument only good if you want to argue with people and insult them.

Oh, I agree completely. The definition of family has changed quite a bit over the years. Who is anyone to say their opinion of family values is better than someone elses? I just used these statistics as a way of showing this, not that gay families somehow strengthen family values. All it is, is the evolution of the family.

[Jake]

Only problem is, these three statistics don't matter one way or another. If the best you can do to prove gays marrying is good is cherry pick two countries and an irrelevent statistic, that's pretty bad.

[Hatman 🍁]

Only problem is, these three statistics don't matter one way or another. If the best you can do to prove gays marrying is good is cherry pick two countries and an irrelevent statistic, that's pretty bad.

That wasn't the point at all. What it shows is that allowing gays to marry has no correlation with family values.

[Jake]

I don't see how it says that at all. It says that Belgium and the Netherlands have lower, but growing numbers of one parent households compared to the US. Kudos for them, but big deal.

[dazzleman]

According to to the National Center for Health Statistics, unmarried women accounted for 68 percent of black births in 2002 compared to 43.4 percent for Hispanics and 22.9 percent for whites. In 1965, the out-of-wedlock birth rate for blacks stood at 25 percent.

I think your argument that somehow gay marriage is related to out of wedlock relationships is pretty fanciful and not addressing the issue.  The real problem is in the general feeling in our culture that somehow the above statistic is not disturbing.  Our culture has been force fed this idiotic girl power, I don't need no man and feminist empowerment b.s. down our throat.  Young woman have been led to believe that just because it is possible to raise a child on your own that it is adviseable.  Young men have failed to take responsibility for their actions because we live in a society where we avoid things that are difficult at all costs and always choose the path of least resistance.  My own mother was a single mom for sometime (natural father was a p.o.s.).  Being a single parent is extraordinarily difficult and you cannot substitute the role of a father.  In summation, Dan Quayle was right,  albeit awkward, about Murphy Brown.

You are absolutely right. 

The problem is not so much that gay marriage causes family structure decay and breakdown.  It doesn't.  The problem is that the same people who are unconcerned about the highly disturbing statistics put forth by patrick1, statistics with which I was already familiar, are the ones who are pushing gay marriage.  These people simply have no credibility when it comes to family values.

[Hatman 🍁]

According to to the National Center for Health Statistics, unmarried women accounted for 68 percent of black births in 2002 compared to 43.4 percent for Hispanics and 22.9 percent for whites. In 1965, the out-of-wedlock birth rate for blacks stood at 25 percent.

I think your argument that somehow gay marriage is related to out of wedlock relationships is pretty fanciful and not addressing the issue.  The real problem is in the general feeling in our culture that somehow the above statistic is not disturbing.  Our culture has been force fed this idiotic girl power, I don't need no man and feminist empowerment b.s. down our throat.  Young woman have been led to believe that just because it is possible to raise a child on your own that it is adviseable.  Young men have failed to take responsibility for their actions because we live in a society where we avoid things that are difficult at all costs and always choose the path of least resistance.  My own mother was a single mom for sometime (natural father was a p.o.s.).  Being a single parent is extraordinarily difficult and you cannot substitute the role of a father.  In summation, Dan Quayle was right,  albeit awkward, about Murphy Brown.

You are absolutely right. 

The problem is not so much that gay marriage causes family structure decay and breakdown.  It doesn't.  The problem is that the same people who are unconcerned about the highly disturbing statistics put forth by patrick1, statistics with which I was already familiar, are the ones who are pushing gay marriage.  These people simply have no credibility when it comes to family values.

Hey, I am concerned about these statistics, and am pushing for same-sex marriage.

[dazzleman]

Hey, I am concerned about these statistics, and am pushing for same-sex marriage.

If you are concerned with those statistics, you're in a distinct minority among those of your political leanings.

The same people who are pushing gay marriage are, by and large, those who applauded the social changes that led to the rapid deterioration of family structures, with catastrophic results for blacks in particular.

That's one of the reasons why many people, including myself, are suspicious of the motives of those pushing gay marriage.

[Hatman 🍁]

Hey, I am concerned about these statistics, and am pushing for same-sex marriage.

If you are concerned with those statistics, you're in a distinct minority among those of your political leanings.

The same people who are pushing gay marriage are, by and large, those who applauded the social changes that led to the rapid deterioration of family structures, with catastrophic results for blacks in particular.

That's one of the reasons why many people, including myself, are suspicious of the motives of those pushing gay marriage.

Well there's nothing to worry about gays getting married in terms of family values. If anything, they would make better families than families with straight parents, if the gay people I know are any indication.

[dazzleman]

Hey, I am concerned about these statistics, and am pushing for same-sex marriage.

If you are concerned with those statistics, you're in a distinct minority among those of your political leanings.

The same people who are pushing gay marriage are, by and large, those who applauded the social changes that led to the rapid deterioration of family structures, with catastrophic results for blacks in particular.

That's one of the reasons why many people, including myself, are suspicious of the motives of those pushing gay marriage.

Well there's nothing to worry about gays getting married in terms of family values. If anything, they would make better families than families with straight parents, if the gay people I know are any indication.

Nothing will make me trust the people pushing a liberal social agenda that has done so much damage to society already.