UK General Discussion Thread: mayy lmao

[ag]

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

They happen to be the only honest Labour MPs.

TIL the role of an MP is to rule her constituents, not to put their desires into practice in the best-intentioned and most expedient way possible or any ~populist~ nonsense like that. How Burkean of you!

Aside for the fact that this is, most definitely, the role of an MP in general, a lot of Labour MPs come from constituencies that overwhelmingly voted against the Brexit. For them to vote in favour of this law would be to directly go against the wishes of their constituents. BTW, this also is the case with Madam May herself: clearly, she does not believe in voting the way her constituents want her to.

And, of course, referenda are evil and should never be used.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

They happen to be the only honest Labour MPs.

TIL the role of an MP is to rule her constituents, not to put their desires into practice in the best-intentioned and most expedient way possible or any ~populist~ nonsense like that. How Burkean of you!

Aside for the fact that this is, most definitely, the role of an MP in general, a lot of Labour MPs come from constituencies that overwhelmingly voted against the Brexit. For them to vote in favour of this law would be to directly go against the wishes of their constituents. BTW, this also is the case with Madam May herself: clearly, she does not believe in voting the way her constituents want her to.

And, of course, referenda are evil and should never be used.

I don't think a representative is necessarily morally obligated to vote the way either (as is the case with quite a few of these Labour MPs) her own constituents or (as is the case with the rest) the country as a whole want. I was just reacting against the implication that to do so somehow indicates "dishonesty".

[Oakvale]

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

They happen to be the only honest Labour MPs.

TIL the role of an MP is to rule her constituents, not to put their desires into practice in the best-intentioned and most expedient way possible or any ~populist~ nonsense like that. How Burkean of you!

You know I'm about as pro-EU as a left-winger could possibly be these days, but all those Labour MPs voting against article 50 are pathetic.

They happen to be the only honest Labour MPs.

Yes. Certainly there are some Tories who are deluded enough to believe Brexit won't be a disaster but the number of Labour MPs who believe such can be counted on one hand. Any Labour MP who voted for this is a disgrace.

The notion that because the confederacy of dunces narrowly voted for "Brexit" (whatever that means?) to un-straighten bananas and kick the wogs out the official opposition should slavishly march toward devastation is bizarre to me. A political party isn't under an obligation to Respect The Will Of The People or whatever inane bollocks Jez was using to justify this trainwreck, when the People make an obviously wrong decision with obviously destructive implications. (It's also ignoring the fairly sizeable chunk of said People who voted against establishing Little Englandism as official government policy but they've apparently ceased to exist in the discourse over the last few months).

My favourite 'highlight' was the perpetually useless Margaret Beckett standing up and saying that she would vote for the bill despite fearing it would be 'disastrous' for Britain. Knowingly voting for disastrous outcomes is becoming a habit - she nominated her party's current shameful carcass of a leader against her better judgement on some similarly vague grounds of Ensuring A Debate. Hopefully she'll learn some day.

Watching this unfold has been like watching the whole world going insane. Because everyone knows it's nuts, but they're shrugging en masse and going along with it because a little over half of the voters in an ill-conceived non-binding plebiscite said they thought the EU was bad.

[Mad Deadly Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God]

If this is a terrible #hottake by all means call me out on it but...

Oakvale, you know this stuff is pure political calculation, right?  Labour and the Tories are only following through on this stuff so that the UK doesn't end up with their equivalent of FN ripping them at the seams.

Was it wise of the party in opposition to tag along with this?  Maybe not.  Because if and when Brexit ends up being a total disaster, both parties will get to share in the blame (Tories more than Labour, obviously) and the only people who will be able to claim the moral high ground are the Lib Dems.  My guess is that the Lib Dems are so detached from relevancy at this point for that to matter now, though.

[Oakvale]

If this is a terrible #hottake by all means call me out on it but...

Oakvale, you know this stuff is pure political calculation, right?  Labour and the Tories are only following through on this stuff so that the UK doesn't end up with their equivalent of FN ripping them at the seams.

Was it wise of the party in opposition to tag along with this?  Maybe not.  Because if and when Brexit ends up being a total disaster, both parties will get to share in the blame (Tories more than Labour, obviously) and the only people who will be able to claim the moral high ground are the Lib Dems.  My guess is that the Lib Dems are so detached from relevancy at this point for that to matter now, though.

Of course it's political calculation - as I said, the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs and, I'd bet, the majority of Conservative MPs don't for a second buy into the Brexiteer fantasies. It's exceedingly unlikely the prime minister does, either. That's what's so appalling - nearly the entirety of the political spectrum are shrugging and - in some cases - openly admitting that they're well aware of the consequences, and then jumping off the cliff anyway.

And the sad thing is that it's not even good political calculus -- the large majority of Labour voters voted Remain and I'd bet 350 million quid a week that the overwhelming majority of Corbyn cultists did, too. Now, sure, sure, the bill would pass even if Labour voted unanimously against but someone needs to be to standing athwart history yelling stop here and it's a fairly damning indictment of the official 'opposition' that it was Ken Clarke.

[ag]

Ken Clarke, of course, is the only remaining Statesman in England today. It is such a pity he is retiring after this parliament. He should just do a Churchill and join the Libs and see if he still has some strength left to go on. He is old, of course, but Churchill at his age was just about to become a PM again.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So if Tony was a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, he would've voted to instate the death penalty? LOL.

[Lord Halifax]

Ken Clarke, of course, is the only remaining Statesman in England today. It is such a pity he is retiring after this parliament. He should just do a Churchill and join the Libs and see if he still has some strength left to go on. He is old, of course, but Churchill at his age was just about to become a PM again.

Well, he is certainly every bit as much of an alcoholic as Churchill.

[ag]

Ken Clarke, of course, is the only remaining Statesman in England today. It is such a pity he is retiring after this parliament. He should just do a Churchill and join the Libs and see if he still has some strength left to go on. He is old, of course, but Churchill at his age was just about to become a PM again.

Well, he is certainly every bit as much of an alcoholic as Churchill.

If I thought that drinking whatever they drink would make me like either one of them, I would drink it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is the idea that the representatives of the people should abide by the decisions of the majority really that weird?

[Oakvale]

When they (almost!) all know full well it's a decision made on an undefined issue after an ill-informed and misargued campaign that's going to have profoundly damaging implications for the country? I think so. Blindly following the emotional spasm of public opinion on the EU because of a legally meaningless referendum is a dereliction of duty on behalf of MPs.

Even if you believe that the plebiscite result should mean all MPs vote in favour of triggering Article 50, surely, surely there can be no justification for doing so now. There's. No. Plan. I mean, Christ, have you seen the white paper? It's Trump-level handwaving nonsense. What a nightmare.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

So if Tony was a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, he would've voted to instate the death penalty? LOL.

There's very little comparison here, it was an advisory referendum, purely symbolical, while Brexit referendum was widely supposed to be biding from day one.

That being said, as an MP I'd vote against. I just would never vote to leave the EU. And since courts ruled parliament should vote too, well, MPs are not required to follow with the results of the referendum.

I know, a funny legal situation.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Once the Pigf**ker decided - in a shameless exercise of the most cynical electoral pandering - to call a referendum and didn't even bother to run a sincere, principled campaign explaining why remaining in the EU was the best choice and people voted exactly as you'd expect them to in such context, there is no way things can end well. Now, yes, respecting the people's will means going down a disastrous road, but what's the alternative exactly? Pretend nothing happened? Tell people their votes were just for sh*ts and giggles, but now the adults are back in charge? Do you realize that doing that means proving all the UKIP and assorted demagogues right? Just like the reaction of smug enlightened liberals like you had to Hillary's defeat reinforces all the dynamics that led to it. Just like, if Macron somehow wins, his presidency will lead more and more people into the arms of the FN.

Yes, Brexit is going to suck. I'll admit that, if I were British, I might even be one of those that tries to prevent it. But taking the broader view, it's obvious that trying to stop it is only going to accelerate the degeneration of Western democracy and ultimately favor the rise of xenophobic populism. The only way to prevent that is to show people people that their vote actually matters, that it has concrete consequences. And if these consequences are terrible, so be it! Democracy has never been a guarantee of good policy choice. That's not the point. The point is that people are adults and citizens capable to make free choices, and these choices should be respected whether you like them or not.

[ApatheticAustrian]

this is why i am always going to detest cameron.

he could have threatened to uphold a referendum if he wasn't happy with the concessions of the EU.

getting what he wanted and only promising to maybe campaign against LEAVE was a weak, hypocritical masterpiece of a failed gambler.

he will be famous for destroying 2 unions.

[DavidB.]

How do we live in times where I agree much more often with Antonio than with Vosem now?

[ApatheticAustrian]

How do we live in times where I agree much more often with Antonio than with Vosem now?

if i read your posts right, you are part of the dying breed of pro-western "nationalists" aka power-to-the-peopler, who are most often found in UK atm.

should automatically lead to strange bedfellows in our "interesting" times.

[Oakvale]

1. There's quite literally no Brexit plan whatsoever except selling some guns to Turkey and bringing back the royal yacht. The white paper is terrifying reading. It's like a bunch of self-help business book affirmations.
2. There's been zero effort to address the Irish border issue, which is fundamentally unreconcilable and the outcome of which - a return to a hard border - will be in violation of our constitution and cause irreparable harm to Northern Ireland both economically and politically, including quite possibly the return of violence.
3. I must correct myself - there is a Brexit plan. It's to leave the single market and tank the economy because tabloid newspapers have scary headlines about immigration numbers. Hang on, you interrupt, didn't political titan Dan Hannan say that there was never any intention to quit the single ma--hah, never mind.

*extremely cuck voice* well people voted 52-48 on membership in a vague conception of what the EU is because they were angry at the Polish so...

I appreciate that I am the reason Trump Won but ironically enough the position of MPs here is basically that of Paul Ryan - political cowardice leading smoothly to utter capitulation in the face of incipient disaster caused by nationalist psychic trauma.



e: Official British government policy on the Border Question at the moment is "a solution will be found, we will not return to the borders of the past!". Reassuring stuff.

[Antonio the Sixth]

1. There's quite literally no Brexit plan whatsoever except selling some guns to Turkey and bringing back the royal yacht. The white paper is terrifying reading. It's like a bunch of self-help business book affirmations.
2. There's been zero effort to address the Irish border issue, which is fundamentally unreconcilable and the outcome of which - a return to a hard border - will be in violation of our constitution and cause irreparable harm to Northern Ireland both economically and politically, including quite possibly the return of violence.
3. I must correct myself - there is a Brexit plan. It's to leave the single market and tank the economy because tabloid newspapers have scary headlines about immigration numbers. Hang on, you interrupt, didn't political titan Dan Hannan say that there was never any intention to quit the single ma--hah, never mind.

I don't dispute any of this, and I dearly hope that politicians find a way to mitigate the inevitable damage (it would be nice if they focused their efforts on doing that instead of engaging in this ridiculous posturing). But modern politics are based on democratic principles, and if we start saying that these principles only valid in such-and-such circumstances or that a group of self-appointed "experts" and moral guardians (who also happen to be rich and powerful) can override them when they deem it necessary "for the greater good", then these principles aren't worth sh*t.

I appreciate that I am the reason Trump Won but ironically enough the position of MPs here is basically that of Paul Ryan - political cowardice leading smoothly to utter capitulation in the face of incipient disaster caused by nationalist psychic trauma.

There are several differences I could point out here, but the most salient one is that 52% > 50% > 46%.

[ag]

Is the idea that the representatives of the people should abide by the decisions of the majority really that weird?

It is not so much weird, as simply wrong.

And, in any case, an MP is not a representative of the entire people of the UK, but only of his constituency. A lot of the Labour MPs are representatives of the people who abhore Brexit, and who voted against it by humongous margins. So, even going by what I consider to be a misguided idea of yours, they should be voting against Brexit.

[ag]

So if Tony was a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, he would've voted to instate the death penalty? LOL.

There's very little comparison here, it was an advisory referendum, purely symbolical, while Brexit referendum was widely supposed to be biding from day one.

I do not know what it was supposed to be, but it would have been strictly illegal for it to be binding.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is the idea that the representatives of the people should abide by the decisions of the majority really that weird?

It is not so much weird, as simply wrong.

Who knew that "modern pragmatic centrists of the 21st century " would be the ones to resurrect Burke and Maistre?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It was a politically binding referendum but not an administratively binding one (i.e. it was officially defined as advisory) which had interesting consequences for the campaign because it removed the implicit legal threats that hang over elections here wrt campaign rhetoric and propaganda. Yes, yet another of Cameron's clever little tricks that backfired...

[Phony Moderate]

I can't be the only one who thinks the result was quite impressive for Remain - the EU has never been loved at all yet over 16 million came out and voted for it. Polls a few years ago were showing around a 20-point lead for the exit side in a (then) hypothetical referendum.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So Tony, if you were a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, would you fight to instate the death penalty? If you were an official in California's government around 2012 or so, would you fight against legalizing gay marriage?

[Antonio the Sixth]

So Tony, if you were a member of the Wisconsin legislature in 2007, would you fight to instate the death penalty? If you were an official in California's government around 2012 or so, would you fight against legalizing gay marriage?

...seriously?