Muslims arrest 40 Christians for praying

[phk]

Saudis arrest 40 Christians for praying

April 25, 2005, 7:52 a.m.
Kingdom’s Religious Wrongs
The religious tyranny in Saudi Arabia is not just Saudis’ business

NRO
By Nina Shea

Before boarding his flight to Crawford to meet with President Bush Monday, Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Abdullah presided over the arrest of 40 Pakistani Christians on Friday. Their crime? The Pakistanis were caught praying in a private home in the capital Riyadh in violation of the state’s strictly enforced religious law that bans all non-Muslim worship.
As the State Department has determined, there is no religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and everyone there, Muslim or not, must obey the rules of the extreme sharia of the kingdom’s established religion, the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam. The Saudi state indoctrinates its nationals from an early age in the Wahhabi ideology of zero tolerance for the “other.” Government textbooks and publications teach that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. The state teaches a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treats the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avows that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel.

Though the persecution of the Pakistani Christians is a dramatic example, they and the other non-Muslims among the quarter of the kingdom’s population who are foreign workers are not the only ones to suffer from the denial of religious freedom. Saudi Arabia’s nationals, by law Muslim, find that a broad range of their freedoms are limited because of the state’s monopoly on religious expression.

For example, Muslims who follow the Sufi and Shiite traditions are viewed as heretical dissidents and viciously condemned and discriminated against by the state. Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi ministry of Islamic affairs explicitly asserts in publications Freedom House has acquired, they “should be killed.” Muslims who object to even particular tenets of Wahhabism, such as advocates of greater religious tolerance, also are viewed as the “other” and condemned as “infidels.” Under Saudi law, such “blasphemers” and “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death.

Political reformers, too, are crushed on religious grounds. Three Saudi professors have now languished for over a year in prison after proposing that the country adopt a written constitution. Among other charges, their terminology was denounced as un-Islamic or “Western.” State publications condemn democracy itself as un-Islamic. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by “infidel” legislated law, rather than Wahhabi-style Islamic law.

A direct consequence of there being no religious freedom is that every Saudi woman is forced by the state to conform to Wahhabi religious edicts restricting dress, transportation, movement, due-process rights, and the ability to participate in civic life.

The expansion of civil and political freedoms in the kingdom, therefore, hinges on religious freedom.

Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks — and the discovery that two thirds of the hijackers were Saudis — Saudi state ideology has become a matter of U.S. national security. As bad as it is that Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia’s state religion, even worse is that it is the Saudi government’s aim to propagate it and have it replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam worldwide, including within the United States. Earlier this year, Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released a report based on a year-long study of the radically intolerant Wahhabi ideology contained in documents spread, published, or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and found in the United States.

In one example, a publication for the “Immigrant Muslim” bearing the words “Greetings from the Cultural Department” of the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, D.C., gave detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel. The opening fatwa of another a book distributed by the embassy that was published by the Saudi air force responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply emphatically rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.”

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

The Saudi state’s propagation of Wahhabi extremism is more than hate speech; it is a totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence. The fact that this ideology is being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government demands President Bush’s urgent attention in today’s conversations with Prince Abdullah. With his remarkable State of the Union address that challenged Saudi Arabia to democratize, the president turned a new page in U.S. policy. Some in American policy circles argue that religious freedom, however, is too sensitive to raise. It's too important not to; the first topic on the president’s agenda should be the expansion of religious freedom in the kingdom — for Muslims, as well as the captive Christians.

— Nina Shea is the director of Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom.

[Banana Republic]

If one more person tries to tell me Islam is a religion of peace and love, I think I might just lay them out.

That's what happens when people take religion way too seriously.

[Gabu]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

[patrick1]

On a releated note, I am not sure I could have voted for Bush after that puke inducing kissing and holding hands business at Crawford.  
Saudi Arabia is an enemy of the United States.

[Banana Republic]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Try to be a homosexual in a state school in London. Then you can tell me this sort of behaviour isn't representative of Muslims as a whole.

[Platypus]

It isn't representative of the muslims at my school, but they're mainly Pakistani, not Saudi.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Picture from Monday at Bush's ranch.

Bush: "I love holding hands with dictators with a 7,7 Freedom House score"

[J. J.]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Gee, JFRAUD posting something biased and altering a headline, I'm very surprised!  (That's sarcasm.)

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Gee, JFRAUD posting something biased and altering a headline, I'm very surprised!  (That's sarcasm.)

Are you calling everyone JFRAUD now?

[phk]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Gee, JFRAUD posting something biased and altering a headline, I'm very surprised!  (That's sarcasm.)

Are you calling everyone JFRAUD now?

LOL

[J. J.]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Gee, JFRAUD posting something biased and altering a headline, I'm very surprised!  (That's sarcasm.)

Are you calling everyone JFRAUD now?

Sorry, I though I recognized the style.  :-)

[they don't love you like i love you]

ah, more of the religion of peace, and a government that Bush loves so much.

If Bush truly cared about stopping terrorism, he'd tell the Saudis to " off" or during this meeting a carefully placed sniper would ensure that Saudi piece of trash would be lying on the ground in blood with his head exploded by now. Anyone who supports the Saudi royal family is an enemy of the United States. DEATH TO THE SAUDI ROYALS!

[Blue Rectangle]

If Bush truly cared about stopping terrorism, he'd tell the Saudis to "f**ck off" or during this meeting a carefully placed sniper would ensure that Saudi piece of trash would be lying on the ground in blood with his head exploded by now.

Yeah, that would stop terrorism.  Kinda like how the overthrow of the Shah stopped Iran from becoming a terrorist state.

[they don't love you like i love you]

huge difference: The Shah was a hardcore secularist.

[J.R. Brown]

I love how you changed "Saudis" to "Muslims", as if these people are representative of Muslims as a whole.

I also love how you paid absolutely no attention to the fact that even those who are the "wrong" kind of Islam also have a lot of problems.  If these people are supposed to be representative of all of Islam, then it seems to me that there would be an awful lot of self-hating Muslims.

Oh, and never mind that part buried deep in the article that talks about a European Muslim preacher who spoke out against the condemnation of Jews and Christians.  I also like how you ignored this paragraph:

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

Honestly, do you people actually read these things or do you just skim them until you feel that your opinion has been verified?

Islam has never been a religion of peace and love. Muhammad caried a sword and in the early days would kill anyone who did not convert. That is the basic idea now with the Islamic extremists. Kill the infadels. Christians have these same kind of extremists. Those same people who think God wants them to murder abortion doctors. However, the basic principles of Islam have it's roots in violence.

[Blue Rectangle]

huge difference: The Shah was a hardcore secularist.

The House of Saud would appear pretty secular in retrospect once the new guys took over.

I don't like Saud either, but your assumption that things would be better with them gone is a fantasy.  A 7,7 rating from freedom house doesn't insure that things couldn't get worse.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Actually out of the house of Saud, the Shah, and the current Iranian government, the current Iranian government is the best of 3 rotten apples. The shah was absolutely brutal.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Regardless the US should not be supporting Saud in any way

[they don't love you like i love you]

Actually out of the house of Saud, the Shah, and the current Iranian government, the current Iranian government is the best of 3 rotten apples. The shah was absolutely brutal.

current Iranian government? Maybe, but not Khomeini. SAVAK were a really nasty bunch, but nothing compares to Khomeini's methods of mine clearing. The Shah wasn't anywhere near as bad as Saddam though, Saddam is about as bad as secular governments go, and I'd rather live in Saddam's Iraq than Saudi Arabia.

Shah's Iran typically got around 6,5 Freedom House rating, better than 7,7.

[Gabu]

Islam has never been a religion of peace and love. Muhammad caried a sword and in the early days would kill anyone who did not convert. That is the basic idea now with the Islamic extremists. Kill the infadels. Christians have these same kind of extremists. Those same people who think God wants them to murder abortion doctors. However, the basic principles of Islam have it's roots in violence.

"[Allah] has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another."
- Muhammad

"Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to people."
- Muhammad

"Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you...God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection."
- Muhammad

"Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers."
- Muhammad

"Happy is the man who avoids dissension, but how fine is the man who is afflicted and shows endurance."
- Muhammad

"He who has been a ruler over ten people will be brought shackled on the Day of Resurrection, until the justice by which he ruled loosens his chains or tyranny brings him to destruction."
- Muhammad

"It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing."
- Muhammad

"Seven kinds of people will be sheltered under the shade of God on the Day of Judgment...They are: a just ruler, a young man who passed his youth in the worship and service of God...one whose heart is attached to the mosque...two people who love each other for the sake of God...a man who is invited to sin...but declines, saying 'I fear God'...one who spends his charity in secret, without making a show...and one who remembers God in solitude so that his eyes overflow."
- Muhammad

"What is the best type of Jihad [struggle]?  Speaking truth before a tyrannical ruler."
- Muhammad

"You should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm."
- Muhammad

None of that seems particularly violent.  Rather, it seems to have a lot in common with what you're told to do in the Christian belief.

Another interesting quote from him is as follows:

"Religion is the way you conduct yourself towards others."
- Muhammad

In other words, regardless of what the Qur'an says, Islam is what Muslims do; therefore, it seems to me that to say that Islam is x and is not y, with no qualifiers put to the statement whatsoever, is a completely false statement, at least according to, er, the religion's most prominent person.

There, in fact, actually exists in the Qur'an the idea of the practice of ijtihad, the interpretation and reasoning based on the Qur'an - no outside influence.  In other words, believers are, in fact, encouraged through ijtihad to develop their own interpretation of the Qur'an, and not to rely on others to tell you what to think.  In further words, the belief that there is one true interpretation of the Qur'an is, in fact, going against the Qur'an.  An interesting piece of trivia is that the concept of the university was actually first invented by Muslims; in the early years of Islam, there were no less than 135 universities in the Middle East.

However, in the 11^th century, some people in the Muslim empire were beginning to take ijtihad too far and were attempting to secede from the empire and declare their own governments.  The leader of the empire, known as the caliph, decided that the solution to this would be to harshly crack down on these dissidents and, in doing so, he effectively shut down ijtihad, replacing it with taqleed, or imitation.  Unfortunately, taqleed was turned over the years from a method of crushing dissidents to a way of life in the Muslim world today.  The major problem is that many Muslims simply don't even know about ijtihad, and given that they're all brought up to listen to their religious superiors for all of their information about their religion, hardly anyone finds out about it.  Those who do pretty much always end up like Irshad Manji - not your stereotypical Muslim at all.

The main reason that terrorism continues is not because the Muslim world supports it, but - this may seem strange - because they don't know how to oppose it.  Most terrorists are extremely good at quoting the Qur'an in such a way that the other Muslims feel like questioning the terrorists would be akin to questioning the Qur'an, and because they're brought up to believe that doing so is a huge no-no, they stay silent.

The fact of the matter is that the problem is not that Islam is hard-wired to demand imitation and strict adherence to religious superiors, but simply that people don't know that it isn't.

[??????????]

Dumb liberals. Know nothing about middle eastern culture. "Kissing" is a sign of greeting in middle eastern culture. And it doesnt matter whether you are a muslim or not because christian arabs do it as well. My lebanese family members do that as well. And lastly, islam is a religion of death not of peace.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Dumb liberals. Know nothing about middle eastern culture. "Kissing" is a sign of greeting in middle eastern culture. And it doesnt matter whether you are a muslim or not because christian arabs do it as well. My lebanese family members do that as well. And lastly, islam is a religion of death not of peace.

well since you agree Islam is a religion of death not peace than Bush should not be meeting with this muderous anti-Christian butcher, right? The fact that he's the guy ahead of this regime here means that the right thing to do would be to ensure that his visit included a carefully placed sniper, not being nice to him.

[??????????]

Dumb liberals. Know nothing about middle eastern culture. "Kissing" is a sign of greeting in middle eastern culture. And it doesnt matter whether you are a muslim or not because christian arabs do it as well. My lebanese family members do that as well. And lastly, islam is a religion of death not of peace.

well since you agree Islam is a religion of death not peace than Bush should not be meeting with this muderous anti-Christian butcher, right? The fact that he's the guy ahead of this regime here means that the right thing to do would be to ensure that his visit included a carefully placed sniper, not being nice to him.

Should FDR have met with Stalin? Should Nixon have met w/Kruchev? Many presidents meet with leaders they really don't care for. We don't really know what President Bush thinks of the Crown Prince, now do we?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Dumb liberals. Know nothing about middle eastern culture. "Kissing" is a sign of greeting in middle eastern culture. And it doesnt matter whether you are a muslim or not because christian arabs do it as well. My lebanese family members do that as well. And lastly, islam is a religion of death not of peace.

well since you agree Islam is a religion of death not peace than Bush should not be meeting with this muderous anti-Christian butcher, right? The fact that he's the guy ahead of this regime here means that the right thing to do would be to ensure that his visit included a carefully placed sniper, not being nice to him.

Should FDR have met with Stalin? Should Nixon have met w/Kruchev? Many presidents meet with leaders they really don't care for. We don't really know what President Bush thinks of the Crown Prince, now do we?

Did FDR kiss Stalin?

[opebo]

It is my dream that these two groups - the Christians and the Muslims - will wipe each other out.