Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Gives Final Approval for Same-Sex Marriage

[Gass3268]

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) joins the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, the Quakers, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Churches and, in Judaism, the Reform and Conservative movements. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America left it open for individual ministers to decide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/us/presbyterians-give-final-approval-for-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=0

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Note that the Episcopal Church has a shoddy draft document, not an actual marriage liturgy.

[RFayette]

Presbyterians for the win!


The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

[badgate]

Go Presbys! Hopefully ELCA will improve their stance soon.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Go Presbys! Hopefully ELCA will improve their stance soon.

2016 would be the earliest, but I doubt it.  At most I'd expect an official recommended order of the wedding service, with appropriate gender neutral changes, to be adopted for use by those want something like that, but I can't see the ELCA going to a stance that forces congregations to leave if they disagree with it.  They haven't lost many congregations since 2009, but they took a sizable hit to membership and I doubt the ELCA will take the hard line on same-sex marriage acceptance you want.

Maybe by the 2019 assembly membership will have stabilized enough for the ELCA to take that step, but even then I doubt it.

[badgate]

Negative Nancy, go home.

[ingemann]

Nice.

[TDAS04]

Excellent news!

[DC Al Fine]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

[DC Al Fine]

I expect we'll see a trickle of churches jump to my denomination (PCA) as per usual. I'm always amazed at the number of conservative congregations still in mainline churches.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

Of course. The mainlines need to fix our own, mostly (but not entirely) separate problems too. A few years back Katherine Jefferts Schori delivered an Easter message that at no point mentioned Jesus. That's flat-out inexcusable.

[RFayette]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Baptists/Pentecostals tend to be big on "Believe or you'll go to hell" and (especially Southern Baptists) have a history of misogyny, racism, and homophobia.

I don't want a "diversity" of opinions if a lot of them are bad for the human race. 

I suppose Northern Baptists and some Black Pentecostal churches are better, but most are inherently regressive (going way back, not just during the recent culture wars) and the mainlines have almost always been on the right side of history.  So it would be great if more could shift to the mainlines.

[DC Al Fine]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

Of course. The mainlines need to fix our own, mostly (but not entirely) separate problems too. A few years back Katherine Jefferts Schori delivered an Easter message that at no point mentioned Jesus. That's flat-out inexcusable.

That's better than Canada. The United Church won't even defrock atheists

[DC Al Fine]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Baptists/Pentecostals tend to be big on "Believe or you'll go to hell" and (especially Southern Baptists) have a history of misogyny, racism, and homophobia.

I don't want a "diversity" of opinions if a lot of them are bad for the human race. 

I suppose Northern Baptists and some Black Pentecostal churches are better, but most are inherently regressive (going way back, not just during the recent culture wars) and the mainlines have almost always been on the right side of history.  So it would be great if more could shift to the mainlines.

There's a lot more diversity on both sides of the aisle than you think. Also are you using the media or Atlas definitions of evangelical vs. mainline?

[TJ in Oregon]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

Of course. The mainlines need to fix our own, mostly (but not entirely) separate problems too. A few years back Katherine Jefferts Schori delivered an Easter message that at no point mentioned Jesus. That's flat-out inexcusable.

That's better than Canada. The United Church won't even defrock atheists

American mainline churches have completely different beliefs from town to town regardless of what their official belief statements are.

I know a ton of people who were raised in various mainline denominations to go off to college and find the church of their denomination there to have quite different views. For instance, the pastor of the PCUSA church where I went to undergrad wasn't really a monotheist.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

Of course. The mainlines need to fix our own, mostly (but not entirely) separate problems too. A few years back Katherine Jefferts Schori delivered an Easter message that at no point mentioned Jesus. That's flat-out inexcusable.

That's better than Canada. The United Church won't even defrock atheists

American mainline churches have completely different beliefs from town to town regardless of what their official belief statements are.

I know a ton of people who were raised in various mainline denominations to go off to college and find the church of their denomination there to have quite different views. For instance, the pastor of the PCUSA church where I went to undergrad wasn't really a monotheist.

This is correct. I attended a PCUSA church in Spokane last summer with my Mom as a kind of anthropological experience (I am an atheist) and it wasn't even remotely similar in terms of the theological messaging. The PCUSA church in Spokane emphasized a theological message endorsed by the Presbytery in terms that bordered on secularism. Meanwhile, the church I attended in Idaho until I was ~14 sacked my Pastor because he had a liberal interpretation of the Bible and was willing to discuss controversial subjects. People in the congregation, naturally, preferred to hear sermons featuring anecdotes and folksy thoughts on Biblical stories rather than theological arguments/claims. The converse of this was the church in Spokane, where the Bible wasn't mentioned once in the sermon but theology was discussed in secular terms.

Obviously, I prefer the latter but I understand why Protestants are concerned.

[memphis]

American mainline churches have completely different beliefs from town to town regardless of what their official belief statements are.

That's funny because the Southern Baptists are the exact opposite of this. On paper, they make a big deal about not requiring any particular creed, but, in reality, they almost uniformly subscribe to Bushie style theology.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Baptists/Pentecostals tend to be big on "Believe or you'll go to hell" and (especially Southern Baptists) have a history of misogyny, racism, and homophobia.

I don't want a "diversity" of opinions if a lot of them are bad for the human race.  

I suppose Northern Baptists and some Black Pentecostal churches are better, but most are inherently regressive (going way back, not just during the recent culture wars) and the mainlines have almost always been on the right side of history.  So it would be great if more could shift to the mainlines.

Northern Baptists are actually generally not bad at all. For example this is the closest Baptist church to me: http://www.calvarychurchmpls.org

Looking at their site they could easily pass as mainline, there's nothing fundie or fire and brimestone about it. Now yes this is in a very liberal area, but it's also a church that has been there since the 19th century (aka it's not some new startup by some more modern pastor), and has no problem affiliating with the American Baptist denomination.

Also even amongst white Pentecostals you'd be surprised that they aren't quite uniform either, take a look at this for example: http://pentecostalaffirmingministries.com

American mainline churches have completely different beliefs from town to town regardless of what their official belief statements are.

That's funny because the Southern Baptists are the exact opposite of this. On paper, they make a big deal about not requiring any particular creed, but, in reality, they almost uniformly subscribe to Bushie style theology.

That's actually a relatively recent development. The Southern Baptists have effectively purged all the liberals, but as recently as 1994 there was a Southern Baptist theological seminary that admitted women.

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Should be the other way around. For all my issues with the evangelicals, I can at least be reasonably certain they believe in the resurrection, which is more than I can say about my local mainlines.

Of course. The mainlines need to fix our own, mostly (but not entirely) separate problems too. A few years back Katherine Jefferts Schori delivered an Easter message that at no point mentioned Jesus. That's flat-out inexcusable.

That's better than Canada. The United Church won't even defrock atheists

At the risk of being a Moderate Hero, I'll point out that for all the trashing of tradition the "hipster" churches do, they actually do pretty well at straying away from both extreme fundamentalism and this type of extreme theological liberalism, and you don't see this type of stuff in it, something even Madeline admitted to. Of course I'll admit this is why some people perhaps hate it so much, for many a combination of orthodox theology, political liberalism (especially if of a "Jesus was the original SJW" type), and extreme casuality and complete disregard for tradition is the worst of all worlds.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Northern Baptists are considered mainline. ABCUSA is one of the Seven Sisters denominations.

And yes, much as I hate to admit it, there are ways in which hipster churches (in general) have sounder theology than the mainlines (in general).

[RFayette]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Baptists/Pentecostals tend to be big on "Believe or you'll go to hell" and (especially Southern Baptists) have a history of misogyny, racism, and homophobia.

I don't want a "diversity" of opinions if a lot of them are bad for the human race. 

I suppose Northern Baptists and some Black Pentecostal churches are better, but most are inherently regressive (going way back, not just during the recent culture wars) and the mainlines have almost always been on the right side of history.  So it would be great if more could shift to the mainlines.

There's a lot more diversity on both sides of the aisle than you think. Also are you using the media or Atlas definitions of evangelical vs. mainline?

I was thinking a long the lines of:
Mainline - PCUSA, United Methodist, Episcopalian, ELCA, UCC, etc.
Middle Line- Some breakaway mainlines like PCA, LCMS/WELS, Northern Baptist, Black Baptist/Pentecostal
Evangelical - Independent Fundamental Baptists, Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, many independent "Christian" churches, white Pentecostals (though there are exceptions as BRTD pointed out).

Look, there are exceptions, but the simple fact is that mainline denominations have been far more likely to oppose slavery & support women's rights than the Southern Baptists (biggest Evangelical group in the USA), who have pretty much been on the wrong side of history every single time.

[H. Ross Peron]

The USA would be so much better if Baptists/Pentecostals converted to Mainline denominations.

I'd rather they fix their own denominations. Reduction in this country's religious diversity doesn't strike me as beneficial.

Baptists/Pentecostals tend to be big on "Believe or you'll go to hell" and (especially Southern Baptists) have a history of misogyny, racism, and homophobia.

I don't want a "diversity" of opinions if a lot of them are bad for the human race. 

I suppose Northern Baptists and some Black Pentecostal churches are better, but most are inherently regressive (going way back, not just during the recent culture wars) and the mainlines have almost always been on the right side of history.  So it would be great if more could shift to the mainlines.

There's a lot more diversity on both sides of the aisle than you think. Also are you using the media or Atlas definitions of evangelical vs. mainline?

I was thinking a long the lines of:
Mainline - PCUSA, United Methodist, Episcopalian, ELCA, UCC, etc.
Middle Line- Some breakaway mainlines like PCA, LCMS/WELS, Northern Baptist, Black Baptist/Pentecostal
Evangelical - Independent Fundamental Baptists, Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, many independent "Christian" churches, white Pentecostals (though there are exceptions as BRTD pointed out).

Look, there are exceptions, but the simple fact is that mainline denominations have been far more likely to oppose slavery & support women's rights than the Southern Baptists (biggest Evangelical group in the USA), who have pretty much been on the wrong side of history every single time.

PCA and LCMS/WELS is far more akin to the Southern Baptists then the American (ie Northern) Baptists. If anything they are even stricter in some regards-ie there are quite a few theonomists in PCA and WELS is firmly Young Earth Creationist while SBC allows for a fairly broad range of views on creation.

[DemPGH]

From the standpoint of how religious views evolve, that's very encouraging. I mean, society moves, and then church bureaucracies catch up. Good news. But in conservative pockets, I can't imagine this will be received well. I know a few conservative Presbyterians, some are relatives, and I don't know how they're going to take that news.

[SNJ1985]

Sad, but not surprising.

At this point, mainline churches think serving the world is more important than serving God. Mainline churches are more concerned about being on the side of public opinion than they are about being on the side of Biblical truth.

[TJ in Oregon]

Here's a real gem from a PCUSA minister last week.

Whatever the PCUSA's beliefs on gay marriage might be, I would hope they could come to a firm conclusion on whether or not Jesus was in fact a historical figure.