LOLGreece - Part 1268

[Bacon King]

Bacon King is, by himself, a more credible source than any German newspaper on issues regarding Greece.

No, that's not how an argument works. The burden of proof is on someone who contests the validity of what is the prevailing viewpoint, not on the person presenting the mainstream view.

When one "questions" something, they are the ones who have to disprove it, because the implication is that whatever is being questioned is already assumed to be true.

This is a weird rule to follow because every side in a debate should be required to back up their argument with facts if requested/contested and you shouldn't get a free pass for claiming to be speaking for conventional wisdom

some sources for my previous post:

Greek-Swiss Treaty: Athens Closes in on Wealthy Tax Evaders (Spiegel, August 2012)
Greek-Swiss tax deal remains elusive (Reuters, Feb 2014)

[Simfan34]

Well, if I went around claiming that the world was flat and abjured any responsibility for proving my claim but merely went around poking holes in arguments for why the world was round, I would be acting unreasonably. It would be the logic of conspiracy theorists- it is enough to claim that something is false to prove the alternative true.

If this is "unverified propaganda", why is it untrue, and what, then, is the truth?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, if I went around claiming that the world was flat and abjured any responsibility for proving my claim but merely went around poking holes in arguments for why the world was round, I would be acting unreasonably. It would be the logic of conspiracy theorists- it is enough to claim that something is false to prove the alternative true.

If this is "unverified propaganda", why is it untrue, and what, then, is the truth?

That's not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if someone accused a guy of, say, cheating without any evidence, and then asked him to come up with evidence proving he did not cheat his wife. That person would probably be tried for libel.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Well, if I went around claiming that the world was flat and abjured any responsibility for proving my claim but merely went around poking holes in arguments for why the world was round, I would be acting unreasonably. It would be the logic of conspiracy theorists- it is enough to claim that something is false to prove the alternative true.

If this is "unverified propaganda", why is it untrue, and what, then, is the truth?

That's not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if someone accused a guy of, say, cheating without any evidence, and then asked him to come up with evidence proving he did not cheat his wife. That person would probably be tried for libel.

     "You are wrong. In actuality, I am right." Perhaps you would fare better if you offered an actual reason for us to believe that your comparison is valid. Argument through persistence is a rather devious way of trying to change the terms of discussion to be more favorable to yourself by just sustaining a point in an effort to convince onlookers.

     Also a little pedantry, but though that case would easily be libel in the UK, it would likely never be charged in the US since libel is extremely difficult to prove. Just another reason that I'm glad to be American.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The reason why my comparison is better than Simfan's is obvious, and I'm sure even yo get it, disingenuity aside.

And yes, I was obviously referring to countries with sensible libel laws.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't particularly care about or pay much attention to Greece. I suppose your comparison is better in the sense that nobody sane sustains that the Earth is flat whereas a fair number of people do sustain that Greece is being treated unjustly. The thing is, the people in the latter group are broadly ones whose opinions I place a lower value on. Not an actual argument to be made against Greece (because of course that would be an ad hominem) but just an impression of mine.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The discussion here isn't about Greece, but about a specific slander that has been thrown against its government, through a simplifying misrepresentation of complex fiscal negotiations with Switzerland. Which incidentally happens not to be the first instance of this anti-Greece propaganda.

I can't fault you for choosing which people you listen to - we all do that. If you want to actually participate in a debate on this topic, however, this is not a valid argument.

[windjammer]

What's going on in Greece?
Has austerity ended?

[jaichind]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-20/greece-moves-to-seize-local-government-cash-as-imf-payment-looms


Tsipras to Seize Public-Sector Funds to Keep Greece Afloat

[ingemann]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-20/greece-moves-to-seize-local-government-cash-as-imf-payment-looms

Tsipras to Seize Public-Sector Funds to Keep Greece Afloat

Interesting, I must admit the only feeling I have is curiosity about how Greece end up.

[Beezer]

Haters gonna hate!

FDR, 1936: "They are unanimous in their hate for me; and I welcome their hatred." A quotation close to my heart (& reality) these days
https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/592264336107806720

[Landslide Lyndon]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-20/greece-moves-to-seize-local-government-cash-as-imf-payment-looms

Tsipras to Seize Public-Sector Funds to Keep Greece Afloat

Interesting, I must admit the only feeling I have is curiosity about how Greece end up.

Frankly I don't really care anymore. I transferred my money abroad.

[jaichind]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

[ingemann]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

Honestly I think the Greek economy may be too far gone to be saved by now, and here's the really horrible part, the Drachma is not a real alternative anymore.

[Landslide Lyndon]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

Honestly I think the Greek economy may be too far gone to be saved by now, and here's the really horrible part, the Drachma is not a real alternative anymore.

That's the only thing certain. You need at least 6 months work to create a new currency. Right now our choice is between a tough deal or a national disaster.

[ingemann]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

Honestly I think the Greek economy may be too far gone to be saved by now, and here's the really horrible part, the Drachma is not a real alternative anymore.

That's the only thing certain. You need at least 6 months work to create a new currency. Right now our choice is between a tough deal or a national disaster.

That's really the least problem Greece is going to have. A much bigger problem is that no one, really no one will be willing to accept any Greek currency, if they default. Greece will only be able to buy foreign goods with foreign currencies, which with Greeks pulling their money out of Greece and the negative BOP will make it near impossible for Greece to import foreign goods.

[jaichind]

Most Greeks Don’t Want Referendum on Deal With Creditors: Poll

1) Govt shouldn’t put any agreement between Greece and its creditors to a referendum, according to 61.9% of respondents in poll by GPO for Mega TV channel, compared with 37% who say it should.
2) 72.2% oppose elections if talks end in deadlock, compared with 26.3% who say there should be new elections
3) 58.3% say they support govt’s strategy, down from 90.3% in Feb. 10 poll; 39.8% oppose strategy, up from 7.4%
4) 78.1% say Greece should reach agreement with creditors, compared with 7.9% favoring a “rupture”
5) Governing Syriza party gets 36.5% in survey of voting intentions if elections were held now, vs 22% for main opposition New Democracy party
6) 50% have positive opinion of Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, vs 48.2% who have negative opinion

Sounds like the what the poll is saying, especially with the part of the opposition to a referendum, is the Greek people wants it both ways or that Tsipras should use magic to make the EU agree to lenient terms and stay in the Euro.  The Greek population seems not to want to make a choice of harsh conditions within the Euro or a Euro exit when in reality it is not possible.  In other words, the Greek population does not want to "own" the bitter medicine. 

[Landslide Lyndon]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

Honestly I think the Greek economy may be too far gone to be saved by now, and here's the really horrible part, the Drachma is not a real alternative anymore.

That's the only thing certain. You need at least 6 months work to create a new currency. Right now our choice is between a tough deal or a national disaster.

That's really the least problem Greece is going to have. A much bigger problem is that no one, really no one will be willing to accept any Greek currency, if they default. Greece will only be able to buy foreign goods with foreign currencies, which with Greeks pulling their money out of Greece and the negative BOP will make it near impossible for Greece to import foreign goods.

Supposedly there was a plan concocted by the government about using IOUs or electronic currency in the interim between exiting the euro and putting into circulation the new drachma. But the whole thing was completely ridiculous and was quickly abandoned as unworkable.

[Simfan34]

Official currency of Greece: Bitcoin?

[ingemann]

It seems we are headed to some sort of deal between Tsipras and EU which breaks a bunch of Tsipras promises in the election.  Then there will be a referendum where the Greek people can vote on the deal and stay in the Euro (and accept the fact that when you own money you have to pay it back)  or no and they all go down together in the sinking ship.  This way Tsipras can claim he tried to keep his election promises but the Greek people said it is OK to break it.

Honestly I think the Greek economy may be too far gone to be saved by now, and here's the really horrible part, the Drachma is not a real alternative anymore.

That's the only thing certain. You need at least 6 months work to create a new currency. Right now our choice is between a tough deal or a national disaster.

That's really the least problem Greece is going to have. A much bigger problem is that no one, really no one will be willing to accept any Greek currency, if they default. Greece will only be able to buy foreign goods with foreign currencies, which with Greeks pulling their money out of Greece and the negative BOP will make it near impossible for Greece to import foreign goods.

Supposedly there was a plan concocted by the government about using IOUs or electronic currency in the interim between exiting the euro and putting into circulation the new drachma. But the whole thing was completely ridiculous and was quickly abandoned as unworkable.

It's a horrible and unworkable idea, but again the 6 month are not the real problem, the real problem is that other countries will not accept Drachma, when they have been introduced, because of the complete lack of trust in the Greek currency and Greece will also have very hard to borrow from abroad. Just imagine what that will do in the short term to Greek oil import. Greek may in the year after leaving the Euro only be able to buy oil on the black market with Euros.

That alone will make what happening right now even worse, you can imagine what it will do to tourism if Greek barely have access to oil.

[Landslide Lyndon]

It's a horrible and unworkable idea, but again the 6 month are not the real problem, the real problem is that other countries will not accept Drachma, when they have been introduced, because of the complete lack of trust in the Greek currency and Greece will also have very hard to borrow from abroad. Just imagine what that will do in the short term to Greek oil import. Greek may in the year after leaving the Euro only be able to buy oil on the black market with Euros.

That alone will make what happening right now even worse, you can imagine what it will do to tourism if Greek barely have access to oil.

Hey, don't tell me that bro, I totally know it. It's some other guys here who believe that being able again to print our own currency will suddenly bring back the good old times of the 80's and 90's.