Nevermore shall we hear the plaintive call of 'Reluctant Nay'

[Prince of Salem]

JCL by and large has never struck me as someone who should be as controversial as he is on this board. He's relatively well-mannered and while may be a goofball at times, he expresses his (potentially offensive) views in a non-offensive fashion, at the very least. It's arguable that whomever you're referring to is actually positioned further to the left than JCL is to the right, and arguably much more vocal and aggressive in his behavior. I (at least think?) I agree with PiT in that JCL equivalents on our side do not find it as difficult to gain electoral traction within our ranks, in part because we as a force usually stick together, and the elements among us that choose not to are either those who use the brand for personal gain or those who haven't accepted the brand for what it is at its core (which is a close-knit group that sticks together no matter what).

Agreed. I still don't understand why JCL is soooo controversial. What is more, he doesn't even strike me as a socon! The only very strict socially conservative position I've seen him sponsor is abortion. That's it! I think even the least conservative Federalist will find him OK when hearing what he ACTUALLY says, and not what is rumored about him.

[SWE]

The issue people have with JCL is not so much his ideology as much as it is the fact that he objectively is not smart

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

The issue people have with JCL is not so much his ideology as much as it is the fact that he objectively is not smart

speak for yourself.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

For a minute I thought he said "This man doesn't speak for me".

[Sec. of State Superique]

JCL by and large has never struck me as someone who should be as controversial as he is on this board. He's relatively well-mannered and while may be a goofball at times, he expresses his (potentially offensive) views in a non-offensive fashion, at the very least. It's arguable that whomever you're referring to is actually positioned further to the left than JCL is to the right, and arguably much more vocal and aggressive in his behavior. I (at least think?) I agree with PiT in that JCL equivalents on our side do not find it as difficult to gain electoral traction within our ranks, in part because we as a force usually stick together, and the elements among us that choose not to are either those who use the brand for personal gain or those who haven't accepted the brand for what it is at its core (which is a close-knit group that sticks together no matter what).

Agreed. I still don't understand why JCL is soooo controversial. What is more, he doesn't even strike me as a socon! The only very strict socially conservative position I've seen him sponsor is abortion. That's it! I think even the least conservative Federalist will find him OK when hearing what he ACTUALLY says, and not what is rumored about him.

Well, his views on Foreign Affairs can some times be controversial. Such as his support of Greater Israel...

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

JCL by and large has never struck me as someone who should be as controversial as he is on this board. He's relatively well-mannered and while may be a goofball at times, he expresses his (potentially offensive) views in a non-offensive fashion, at the very least. It's arguable that whomever you're referring to is actually positioned further to the left than JCL is to the right, and arguably much more vocal and aggressive in his behavior. I (at least think?) I agree with PiT in that JCL equivalents on our side do not find it as difficult to gain electoral traction within our ranks, in part because we as a force usually stick together, and the elements among us that choose not to are either those who use the brand for personal gain or those who haven't accepted the brand for what it is at its core (which is a close-knit group that sticks together no matter what).

Agreed. I still don't understand why JCL is soooo controversial. What is more, he doesn't even strike me as a socon! The only very strict socially conservative position I've seen him sponsor is abortion. That's it! I think even the least conservative Federalist will find him OK when hearing what he ACTUALLY says, and not what is rumored about him.

Well, his views on Foreign Affairs can some times be controversial. Such as his support of Greater Israel...

Yet many of my fellow players (not all) want Israel back to the pre-1967 borders with a Palestinian state. Those borders (pre-1967) are in my opinion nearly impossible to defend without resorting to the Sampson Option.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I think it's funny Simfan is pulling the card of "Yankee doesn't stand up for our principles" when Simfan likely votes more often for candidates outside of his own ideological background than he does for those within it.

How many candidates are there that come from my "ideological background" in the first place?

You can dress it up in nuance all you like, but you're a right-winger: there are plenty.

Of course I'm a right-winger. That doesn't obligate me to vote for JCL.

Uh, in this game and in this dynamic, it kind of does. Of course, that's the true problem with the Right in terms of internal structure and order. It's not Yankee that's the problem with respect to how he votes in the Senate: it's individuals such as yourself that comprise the half-dozen special snowflake factions among the Right that all feel entitled to unique treatment and platforms, or else they take their ball and go home. I remember the far left having this problem a couple of years ago, until my glorious reign bashed some skulls and ended most of that (no one can ever truly please the softcocks nor the purist of loons, unfortunately).

I'm sure that most voters on the left would have just as much trouble voting for someone comparable to JCL from their own side of the aisle. There isn't one, though, because JCL is sui generis. This is someone who managed to serve through an entire session of the Senate while remaining completely oblivious to its rules. Of course, with better organization, the Federalists might have found  a more competent candidate - not necessarily a less radical one, but someone who is, errr, more with it - to run in the first place.

     Any issues that most people have with JCL (not necessarily yourself) pertain to his views, as these issues well predate his stint in the Senate. In terms of somebody's ideological views, there is most definitely a high-profile member of the Labor Party who is analogous to him. Yes, this person has enjoyed significant electoral success, unlike JCL.

There are a couple of relevant differences here, though. First, TNF has an excellent command of the Senate's rules and, more generally, the norms that a Senator needs to abide by to get his proposals passed in some form. Consider how many TNF bills have passed with Federalist votes. Can you imagine JCL pulling that off? If JCL were capable of legislating as effectively as TNF, most Atlasians would see JCL differently, even if his substantive policy wins were very limited.

The second difficulty that JCL faces is that his most unpopular views have to do with familiar wedge issues that cut uncomfortably close to voters' sense of identity. Opposing gay rights or supporting science classes in creationism causes more discomfort among people than support for revolutionary violence against the rich for reasons that pretty obviously have nothing to do with how distant those views are from those of the median voter.

Another good example: JCL's advocacy for his version of Austrian economics sets off obvious alarm bells in most voters' heads because it closely resembles forms of crank-ery that we encounter frequently elsewhere.

Moreover, TNF can express his views articulately. We are all familiar with his characteristically feisty rhetoric, but he can also spin compelling, evidence-based arguments when that is what the situation demands. I have never seen JCL do the same. I am reasonably confident that this isn't just a function of my ideological priors differing from his, because other posters on the right - including DC, Simfan, Dallasfan, and you - consistently make credible and interesting points that I disagree with just as strongly.

     I see what you say, and I would like to thank you for your in-depth post on the matter.

     With that said I think there is also a difference in the backing they have received from their own parties. The Federalists, and that includes myself, need to be better at supporting our own people and dealing with the partisan back-and-forth. That is a part of the difference that has been understated so far. That's why I suggested that we should have a permanent Public Relations Corps.

[Boston Bread]

Regardless of political differences, I wish Yankee, JCL, all you federalists good luck in building up your party organization. Atlasia is better for your participation.