MA: The Mideast High Speed Rail Expansion Act (Signed)

[Boston Bread]

One question. Why isn't indianapolis the Indiana hub when in previous legislation it was made the hub?

Indianapolis has no high speed rail lines currently, but Fort Wayne does, based on federal legislation in 2009. Look at Shua's map for what lines currently exist. But if this bill is passed Indianapolis would certainly become the centre of high-speed rail traffic in Indiana.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

One question. Why isn't indianapolis the Indiana hub when in previous legislation it was made the hub?

Indianapolis has no high speed rail lines currently, but Fort Wayne does, based on federal legislation in 2009. Look at Shua's map for what lines currently exist. But if this bill is passed Indianapolis would certainly become the centre of high-speed rail traffic in Indiana.

I'll take a look at that but I was also going along the Amtrak lines. Thanks for the clarification.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

That looks good, but it should be Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati and not Columbus-Cincinnati-Dayton.

Also I realized that going from Cleveland would be the quickest from Ohio to Wheeling, and enable stops in Akron and Canton on the way.


Anything I vote for, I've got to be convinced that every route is going to have sufficient either direct or indirect traffic for it to make financial and environmental sense.  I haven't been convinced for at least half the legs here, and so there's a good chance I won't vote for the final product. Nevertheless I appreciate the work being done here.

[Boston Bread]

Thank you Shua for your suggestion. Dayton has been correctly put ahead of Cincinnati and the route now runs from Cleveland to Wheeling. Given that we have to upgrade additional stations in the urban areas along the way, the cost estimate remains the same.

Of all the rails outlined, Louisville->St.Louis is the one I am most willing to abandon, as the area does not appear to have high potential traffic and there are no large cities on the way. So not even I am convinced of its financial sense (it wasn't in my original bill, but tmth added it in), although I was originally going to let it slide for tmth and for the sake of stimulus spending. Shua, would you support the bill if that rail, and only this rail, was cancelled? It would save about $9 billion, assuming a cost per mile of $35 million.

[Hatman 🍁]

Why not just have it follow the interstates?

[Boston Bread]

I'll call a vote on my amendment. Please vote aye, nay or abstain.

Even if you oppose the bill, please vote in favour of the amendment because it's an evident improvement over the original.

[Boston Bread]

Aye

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Thank you Shua for your suggestion. Dayton has been correctly put ahead of Cincinnati and the route now runs from Cleveland to Wheeling. Given that we have to upgrade additional stations in the urban areas along the way, the cost estimate remains the same.

Of all the rails outlined, Louisville->St.Louis is the one I am most willing to abandon, as the area does not appear to have high potential traffic and there are no large cities on the way. So not even I am convinced of its financial sense (it wasn't in my original bill, but tmth added it in), although I was originally going to let it slide for tmth and for the sake of stimulus spending. Shua, would you support the bill if that rail, and only this rail, was cancelled? It would save about $9 billion, assuming a cost per mile of $35 million.

I'll have to consider it some more, but it's possible that I would vote for it.

What is your thinking on 4, the selling off of routes? I'm wondering if it breaking up the routes would create a disadvantage - if we have a route that sees a lot of use we might need that to support a less profitable stretch of rail.


Aye on the amendment.

[Boston Bread]

My amendment gives the Mideast government power to deny rail purchases, so it's in our power to keep profitable rail sections if we rely on the profits. I would also expect that the department of Transportation would also price profitable rail lines at a higher level.

Oh, and Shua: if you think some rail lines shouldn't be built, you could introduce an amendment to cancel some rail lines in the bill.
If you need a cost estimate for how much it would save, high-speed rail costs are estimated at $35 million/mile and $50 million/mile in Appalachia.

[TDAS04]

My amendment gives the Mideast government power to deny rail purchases, so it's in our power to keep profitable rail sections if we rely on the profits.

Makes sense to me.  I don't see why this should not be done.

[MadmanMotley]

My amendment gives the Mideast government power to deny rail purchases, so it's in our power to keep profitable rail sections if we rely on the profits.

Makes sense to me.  I don't see why this should not be done.

[Hatman 🍁]

Aye

[Boston Bread]

By a 3-0 vote, the amendment has passed.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

My amendment gives the Mideast government power to deny rail purchases, so it's in our power to keep profitable rail sections if we rely on the profits. I would also expect that the department of Transportation would also price profitable rail lines at a higher level.

Oh, and Shua: if you think some rail lines shouldn't be built, you could introduce an amendment to cancel some rail lines in the bill.
If you need a cost estimate for how much it would save, high-speed rail costs are estimated at $35 million/mile and $50 million/mile in Appalachia.

Yes, I will offer an amendment. First I have asked the Northeast if they have a HSR line from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia to see whether we can connect to it if so.

[Boston Bread]

Why not just have it follow the interstates?

It will largely follow the same route as non-high speed rail lines previously built in the region.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

here is my amendment:

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edit 1: added back in Indianapolis-Louisville
edit 2: added cost estimates

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I added in the cost estimates, though it looks like I'm using higher estimates for cost - based on $35 mil/mile and about $50 mil/mile in the mountains, plus some for hub construction - than were in the original bill.

[Boston Bread]

It looks fine by me. I was worried you'd scratch large sections of our rail plan but I approve of all the changes to which lines are built. The $35 mil/mile and about $50 mil/mile were my estimates, based on the higher end of construction cost experience in Europe.
I'm not sure if it's necessary to include "hub construction". By that do you mean building stations and the like? That won't be too expensive since for the large part existing stations will be used and the upgrade cost is included in my cost per mile estimates.
So Shua, you can revise the hub construction cost down somewhat.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

It looks fine by me. I was worried you'd scratch large sections of our rail plan but I approve of all the changes to which lines are built. The $35 mil/mile and about $50 mil/mile were my estimates, based on the higher end of construction cost experience in Europe.
I'm not sure if it's necessary to include "hub construction". By that do you mean building stations and the like? That won't be too expensive since for the large part existing stations will be used and the upgrade cost is included in my cost per mile estimates.
So Shua, you can revise the hub construction cost down somewhat.

I figured there was some of that, so I only added another $1.5 billion combined extra for new and expanded stations.

[Boston Bread]

To clarify, only one of the 8a or 8b routes is being built, I'm assuming? Otherwise that would be an over expansion of the rail bill

Shua, can I count on your vote for the final bill if your amendment passed?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Shua, why was the Cleveland to Washington DC route taken out in your amendment?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Shua, why was the Cleveland to Washington DC route taken out in your amendment?

Because this is something we are going to have to work with the Northeast in order to do, and so I thought it made sense to see what plan they are interested in before proceeding on that, but there's no reason to hold up the rest of the bill in the meantime.  Yes, New Canadaland, only one of the two is to be built, I tried to make that clear in the language but I'll go back and make it clearer (edit: also added in here an additional option). I will support this bill if my amendment passes.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Shua, why was the Cleveland to Washington DC route taken out in your amendment?

Because this is something we are going to have to work with the Northeast in order to do, and so I thought it made sense to see what plan they are interested in before proceeding on that, but there's no reason to hold up the rest of the bill in the meantime.  Yes, New Canadaland, only one of the two is to be built, I tried to make that clear in the language but I'll go back and make it clearer (edit: also added in here an additional option). I will support this bill if my amendment passes.

These changes are satisfactory to me as well and hopefully the Northeast will be willing to work together with us.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Just one more thing though - I'm not entirely clear on where we are getting the funds to do this.

[Boston Bread]

We have a hefty budget surplus regionally, in fact spending all this in 1 year still gives the region a significant surplus. The Mideast can cover all the funds without a problem. Again, Shua, would you support the final bill with your amendment included?