🇦🇹 Austria General Discussion

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what?  all those videos of the "refugees" tossing full cases of water on the train tracks, grabbing boxes of things that were supposed to be handed out individually, forcing young children to look way more in distress than they actually are and stealing sh**t off the back of trucks/lorries doesn't look like "great anxiety" to you?

I dunno, the fact that over 5000 refugees drowned in The Mediterranean suggest the decision isn't some amusing lark either.

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what?  all those videos of the "refugees" tossing full cases of water on the train tracks, grabbing boxes of things that were supposed to be handed out individually, forcing young children to look way more in distress than they actually are and stealing sh**t off the back of trucks/lorries doesn't look like "great anxiety" to you?

I dunno, the fact that over 5000 refugees drowned in The Mediterranean suggest the decision isn't some amusing lark either.

No one said they should be left to drown in the water. They shouldn't be granted to choose where they live or how long they stay there, and as soon as the war is over unless they have a (2000 Euro+ Job) and are perfectly integrated, they need to be sent back to rebuild their Homeland.

And these are no harsh rules, these same rules apply for everyone in Austria in order to get a "Green Card".

For everyone, except the Refugees and the ones who are "connecting their Family".

That wasn't the point of my statement.

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what?  all those videos of the "refugees" tossing full cases of water on the train tracks, grabbing boxes of things that were supposed to be handed out individually, forcing young children to look way more in distress than they actually are and stealing sh**t off the back of trucks/lorries doesn't look like "great anxiety" to you?

I dunno, the fact that over 5000 refugees drowned in The Mediterranean suggest the decision isn't some amusing lark either.

Excellent argument to stop giving them hope and just tell them that anyone who crosses the sea has to go back anyway. If they are all sent back, they will stop coming. It is the Europeans who create the incentive for people to try their luck and drown. Because keeping our borders open "feels good".

I don't even wholly disagree with this assessment, but the point of my statement if the fact that so many people die kind of disproves the notion that everybody not literally running from a bomb is planning to head to Europe for a sort of lark. If you do something you no runs the risk of death, there must be an element of desperation.

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I don't know whether my stance counts as Zionism. I think that all Jews have a right to live in Israel including the West Bank and Gaza, but I don't think the state should be an "explicitly" Jewish state (or if it is, it should be clarified that the state is binational, and bilingual - a joint Arab-Semetic project).

Perhaps it's hopelessly naive, but I can't stand the idea of a two state solution, which seems unworkable imo.

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I don't know how to think about this. Recently I have to started to generally shift towards a more American perspective on freedom of speech/expression (and before anybody asks, that includes for the alt right as well) and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of shutting down dissent for political gain. Then again, Islamism is generally a menace that doesn't play fair in the "marketplace of ideas" due to its subsidy by foreign governments, so I dunno really.

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I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.

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I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.

Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.

Yeah, the Grey Wolves connection is a lot less sticky a reason to target these mosques and organisations; they're basically a criminal syndicate like the Mafia.

I don't think people or religions should be targeted because they are conservative though, as long as they are not preaching hate (calls to genocide etc). That said, I think the state should work with religions to make them less patriarchal and closed off.

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I will say that most of those radicalised by Isis have not done so in mosques. Which is not to say that the salafi mosques are not an issue, but I don't know how important they are in the specific context of violent jihadism.

Yeah, I think here they were mostly not welcome in mosques, and those who have gone that far down the rabbit hole are also likely to be paranoid enough to avoid going there, as intelligence services usually know damn well in which mosques they should have infiltrators and sources. Those who are at that stage of radicalization usually meet up in living rooms. Radicalization often does start in these mosques though.

Not completely convinced salafism was the issue here, even though Kurz and Strache did mention political Islam, because they also talked about far-right extremism and ties to the Grey Wolves. That's a whole different issue, I'd say. At least organizations tied to the Grey Wolves here are associated with different types of problematic behavior (violent crime, mafia stuff, intimidation of political opponents in other Turkish organizations), but not with salafism, which is more of a problem in Arab than in Turkish mosques in the first place.

Yeah, the Grey Wolves connection is a lot less sticky a reason to target these mosques and organisations; they're basically a criminal syndicate like the Mafia.

I don't think people or religions should be targeted because they are conservative though, as long as they are not preaching hate (calls to genocide etc). That said, I think the state should work with religions to make them less patriarchal and closed off.

I'm on board with this except for your last sentence which I don't understand. What do you mean by that?

I think ideally, religions and the state would work together a bit more. For example, I think the state should clamp down on unregulated madrassas/religious schools and ensure that religious children are not grown up in isolation. Ideally I would ban schools from having religious requirements to enrol entirely, but that might be too much. I also think the state should promote gender parity in religion, and try and cajole as many female inmans/clergy as possible (within theological limits). Maybe there should be more effort in RE classes to teach that all religious perspectives should be treated as equally valid, and that no one centralised book or person has all answers (not state atheism or anything, just a contextualisation of religion).