🇦🇹 Austria General Discussion

[Zinneke]

"Tender never reports about white criminals" ...

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2858137

Over the weekend, a 25-year old woman was abducted in a truck and raped for hours near a lake (where she went swimming) in a wooded area in Lower Austria. The suspect is a 45-year old man (with or without migration background still unknown).

The question is how you believe this to be somehow essential to Austrian and International political discussion, rather than "faits divers" outliers regularly used by populists on both sides to push a far more wide reaching agenda.

[Zinneke]

"Tender never reports about white criminals" ...

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2858137

Over the weekend, a 25-year old woman was abducted in a truck and raped for hours near a lake (where she went swimming) in a wooded area in Lower Austria. The suspect is a 45-year old man (with or without migration background still unknown).

The question is how you believe this to be somehow essential to Austrian and International political discussion, rather than "faits divers" outliers regularly used by populists on both sides to push a far more wide reaching agenda.

"Outliers" ?!?

There have been too many "outliers" in the past years IMO, resulting from the failed immigration policy by Merkel and Co.

Merkel and co are responsible how exactly? Do they have a crystal ball to determine when a migrant is a rapist and when they are not?  

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Strawman. And an attempt to politicise rape. For me it shouldn't be a political issue. As soon as you commit it you should be imprisoned for a considerable amount of time in accordance with the law, or in the case of an asylum seeker, deported. We know the legal avenues for deportation are blocked due to the burning of passports though.

Could you source "ultra-leftist" parties saying crime should be the new normal in Europe? Maybe start local, like the "ultra-leftist" party you last voted for...

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Well done, Tender, what a massive contribution you're making to the struggle against sexual violence , sharing news articles on a sparsely populated forum, whipping up the old "Arab and African = sexual predation" fears amongst the population of the Atlas Forum. I'm sure the Austrian police are grateful.  

Now, continue bragging about your sexual exploits when a woman on Atlas shows up...

[Zinneke]

"Tender never reports about white criminals" ...

http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2858137

Over the weekend, a 25-year old woman was abducted in a truck and raped for hours near a lake (where she went swimming) in a wooded area in Lower Austria. The suspect is a 45-year old man (with or without migration background still unknown).

The question is how you believe this to be somehow essential to Austrian and International political discussion, rather than "faits divers" outliers regularly used by populists on both sides to push a far more wide reaching agenda.

"Outliers" ?!?

There have been too many "outliers" in the past years IMO, resulting from the failed immigration policy by Merkel and Co.

Merkel and co are responsible how exactly? Do they have a crystal ball to determine when a migrant is a rapist and when they are not?  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Strawman. And an attempt to politicise rape. For me it shouldn't be a political issue. As soon as you commit it you should be imprisoned for a considerable amount of time in accordance with the law, or in the case of an asylum seeker, deported. We know the legal avenues for deportation are blocked due to the burning of passports though.

Could you source "ultra-leftist" parties saying crime should be the new normal in Europe? Maybe start local, like the "ultra-leftist" party you last voted for...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well done, Tender, what a massive contribution you're making to the struggle against sexual violence , sharing news articles on a sparsely populated forum, whipping up the old "Arab and African = sexual predation" fears amongst the population of the Atlas Forum. I'm sure the Austrian police are grateful.  

Now, continue bragging about your sexual exploits when a woman on Atlas shows up...

Oh man ... you don't get it.

Of course Merkel and Co. could have prevented it, by sending a clear signal back in 2015 already that these people do not belong here. And of course the rapes and killings that followed are connected to politics. But yeah, you don't get it and probably never will.

Effortless superiority argument to shut the debate down.

As for your solution, we have seen how Syrian refugees and economic migrants alike have been treated in transit countries. In Turkey they started sending them to us. In Libya the people profit from the transit. In what way keeping a million refugees in these countries or in Hungary twiddling their thumbs doing f all helps them or us? Or do you want to further distance them from civil society?

Merkel and other political leaders expected the rest of Europe to take their share, and while Hungary does have a convincing argument (their lack of responsibility for the crisis) the likes of France and the UK should do their fare share given it was their grand schemes in MENA that led us here in the first place.

[Zinneke]

Another year is over and Vienna had 17 murders this year (a rate of 0.9/100.000 people).

Compared with Philly (315 murders so far), the rate is 20/100.000.

Those new Syrian refugees must be busy not murdering each other.

Once again, you are misinterpreting these numbers:

We have imported additional crimes by allowing this uncontrolled mass immigration to happen.

Crimes that would have otherwise not happened. Many young Austrian/German/Swedish etc. women would be unraped now and many people would not be dead now or beaten up.

Apart from Donald Trump's latest "let's mock the climate change" tweet, this is literally the dumbest thing I had to read all week. I feel like Tender owes me money as compensation for having to endure reading this post.

Why is that dumb? Crime in any society increases with a higher share of young males, if those young males come from violent societies and disproportionally have been through traumatic events this will significantly increase the effect.

Because migrants commit crimes against non-migrants. Non-migrants commit crimes against migrants. Migrants commit crimes against other migrants. And non-migrants commit crimes against other non-migrants. The idea that you can calculate some kind of balance sheet where you put the pure "migrant perpetrator"/"non-migrant victim" ratio against the pure "non-migrant perpetrator"/"migrant victim" ratio while completely deducting the migrant-against-migrant crimes and non-migrant-against-non-migrant crimes so in the end you have a pure net balance which shows which group has "scored" higher against the other group is simply preposterous and also intellectually offensive. It also happens to be racist thinking, because among other things it inevitably places higher value on a non-migrant victim of a crime than a migrant victim.

Also... migrants who have comitted a crime in Austria may have comitted the same crime had they been someplace else. Or maybe they wouldn't have, since crimes often depend on the exact circumstances of where, when, and why. Maybe a migrant who's now in Austria and has never committed a crime, would have a committed a crime if he had ended up in Germany instead. And if we follow that thinking further, a migrant who has committed a crime in Vienna now may have never committed that crime had he been in Salzburg instead. And a crime that was committed by a Austrian in, let's say, South Africa, may or may not have committed as well had he stayed in Austria.

So, what's the point of all this?

Also, the phrase "many young  women would be unraped now" makes my brain hurt.

A government is primarily obliged to protect its own citizens,

And it does so by upholding international LOAC and Human Rights norms, including the acceptance of refugees, because despite how safe you think the West is, one day you, your family or your descendants may have to apply for refugee status.  

Respect for the rule of law and the international legal norms we have established is part of what makes our success. We also have procedures to change it if the laws are outdated. The Dublin agreement on refugees for example is clearly outdated when handling the middle corridor between Libya and Italy.

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Regardless of the fact that pre-emptive judgement and especially action of what an individual you know virtually nothing is something out of Minority Report, this is a massive caricature.

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That does not mean that the young male fleeing from war or dictatorship who isn't any of the things you listed above, is somehow not entitled to the same opportunities you would have if you were subject to such conditions.

And btw, Brussels also recorded its lowest murder rate since WW2 Tender. 2nd rate European capitals FTW

[Zinneke]

It seems to me that the suspect is not actually an immigrant.

Still a horrible crime. RIP.

What Tender means is that his skin was dark.

[Zinneke]

It seems to me that the suspect is not actually an immigrant.

Still a horrible crime. RIP.

What Tender means is that his skin was dark.

Don't know what you guys are talking about, but all the sources say that the perpetrator is a Moroccan truck driver who was questioned by Spanish police and who confessed to the crime.

Being a Moroccan means that he's either an immigrant living in Germany, or an immigrant living in Spain - who's driving to Germany with his truck.

No Tender, he could have been born and raised in either country. And still hold Morroccan nationality. That would not make him an immigrant.