We have a Pope

[12th Doctor]

Hopefully, the church does split over this.  The true believers can stay in the church and those who don't follow Catholic teachings will leave like they should.

Sad but true.  Most of the liberal Catholics the news talked about with the Gallup poll don't go to Church anyway.  Certain issues are up for change but there are certain issues that you cannot change just because current societal norms calls for it.  If you want a church that still has some ritual with nothing behind it and that caves on every single issue- become an Episcapalian.

that's a very derogatory and condescending attitdue. I agree liberal Catholics should become Episcopalians (or Evangelical Lutherans, since we are fairly similar to the Catholic church service -wise as well), but you appear to think their church is inferior.

Then why don't they just do that?  It is obvious that many of them don't identify with the Church anymore.

I'll tell you why.  Because it is not about religion per se.  So called "Liberal Catholics" aren't going to go to mass regardless of who the Pope is.  Indeed, many of them want a Church where not going to mass is "okay".  Basically, they want the Church to approve of what they are already doing.  They have no desire to go back, no matter what doctrinal changes are made.

[12th Doctor]

Now that that is said, I guess that, now that I have time to think about it, while I'm not extatic, I am not anxious about Benedict XVI, either.  I'm think he will do well.  The more research I do, the more I see signs that he will not try to drag the Church to the far right, nor will he agressive in defining the role of the Church in the world, I don't think.  He will try to heal some of the wounds of the Church so that the next Pope can work on a braoder agenda of faith.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I suspect that his choice of name was more influenced by St. Benedict of Nursia and Pope Saint Benedict II (patron saint of Europe) than Benedict XV.  Given the ill-fortune and infamy that has accompanied the name since Benedict II, one has to wonder why so many popes have chosen it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Hopefully, the church does split over this.  The true believers can stay in the church and those who don't follow Catholic teachings will leave like they should.

Sad but true.  Most of the liberal Catholics the news talked about with the Gallup poll don't go to Church anyway.  Certain issues are up for change but there are certain issues that you cannot change just because current societal norms calls for it.  If you want a church that still has some ritual with nothing behind it and that caves on every single issue- become an Episcapalian.

that's a very derogatory and condescending attitdue. I agree liberal Catholics should become Episcopalians (or Evangelical Lutherans, since we are fairly similar to the Catholic church service -wise as well), but you appear to think their church is inferior.

Then why don't they just do that?  It is obvious that many of them don't identify with the Church anymore.

I'll tell you why.  Because it is not about religion per se.  So called "Liberal Catholics" aren't going to go to mass regardless of who the Pope is.  Indeed, many of them want a Church where not going to mass is "okay".  Basically, they want the Church to approve of what they are already doing.  They have no desire to go back, no matter what doctrinal changes are made.

Well the Episcopalian and Evangelical Lutheran churches don't make a big deal if you go to services every week, so that's another reason they should switch. I don't see what you're whining about, I agree they should change, and my mom does no doubt. My mom made the right choice. Acting like they are wrong in some way or joining an inferior church for doing so though isn't a very nice attitude.

[Storebought]

I suspect that his choice of name was more influenced by St. Benedict of Nursia and Pope Saint Benedict II (patron saint of Europe) than Benedict XV.  Given the ill-fortune and infamy that has accompanied the name since Benedict II, one has to wonder why so many popes have chosen it.

You would think they just asked to be beaten senseless by French mercenaries at age 80...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Prediction:  Benedict XVI will take up the pacifist agenda of Benedict XV and will make Vatican opposition to the War on Terror a central element of his Papacy.  This will create a significan rift between the Church and many of its American adherents.  Most actual church going Catholics support the war, its the non-practicing ones who are mostly against it.  This, combined with continued indifference to the child sex scandal will leave the American church weaker than ever before.

Out on a limb, but the name makes me nervous.

Why do you care? You're not Catholic, or even Christian.

I couldn't care one bit either way if the church disappeared off the face of the earth tommorow. I have my own church, I don't care what others do.

[Peter]

Why do you care? ... I don't care what others do.

Seems to be self-contradictory to me.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

How so? My point is I don't see why a non-Catholic would worry about the American church splintering and weakening itself.

[Peter]

How so? My point is I don't see why a non-Catholic would worry about the American church splintering and weakening itself.

You say you don't care what others do, but earlier in your post and in your latest post indicate that you do care.

[A18]

Um, no he didn't. He indicated twice that he didn't care.

[Jake]

Um, no he didn't. He indicated twice that he didn't care.

He seems to care why Ford cares. Obviously, if he didn't care, he wouldn't care. Duh

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It was mostly a question of curiosity.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I don't think Razinger will push the Church too much more to the right, because it's already about as far right as it can get.  It's just that the Cardinals had a chance here to actually advance the cause of the faith as a whole, and they blew it. 

I know a lot of lapsed Catholics who would return to the Church if it would soften its stand on women and gays.  Most of them (including my mother) still go to church, just not a Catholic one.  Others would return if their modernized their views on requirements for the priest hood.  One of may parent's closest friends was a priest, but chose to leave when he fell in love and wanted to get married.  So to say that liberal Catholics wouldn't go to mass regardless of the Pope's politics is just not true.

I myself have not been a consistant church-goer since college (primarily out of laziness), but told myself after JP II died that I would make the effort to go every week if the new pope gave me reason to want to come back.   I certainly won't be doing that anytime soon with Ratzinger in charge.

[The Duke]

I care about the direction of the world Catholic Church because its a potent political force in mobilizing the masses in Latin America and Africa especially for or against certain causes.

I care specifically about the American Church because I don't think I have to be a member to want to see a social institution dear to so many succeed.  I have many Catholic friends to whom the Church is an important part of their lives, and I'd be greatly pained to see the Church they love betray them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have many Catholic friends to whom the Church is an important part of their lives, and I'd be greatly pained to see the Church they love betray them.

I could say the same thing about liberal Catholic friends.

[??????????]

I don't think Razinger will push the Church too much more to the right, because it's already about as far right as it can get.  It's just that the Cardinals had a chance here to actually advance the cause of the faith as a whole, and they blew it. 

I know a lot of lapsed Catholics who would return to the Church if it would soften its stand on women and gays.  Most of them (including my mother) still go to church, just not a Catholic one.  Others would return if their modernized their views on requirements for the priest hood.  One of may parent's closest friends was a priest, but chose to leave when he fell in love and wanted to get married.  So to say that liberal Catholics wouldn't go to mass regardless of the Pope's politics is just not true.

I myself have not been a consistant church-goer since college (primarily out of laziness), but told myself after JP II died that I would make the effort to go every week if the new pope gave me reason to want to come back.   I certainly won't be doing that anytime soon with Ratzinger in charge.

I like Benedict and with all hope he will purge all the liberals from the church. We don't need "progression" and acceptance of sin. Hopefully the church will push farther to the right.

[Bono]

I disagree on that.  I don't really think the idea of 'just war' was really on Bush's mind when he began the war.

I could care less what was on Bush's mind. The fact was that it meets the criteria under the Just War theory.  The Holy Father was wrong on this one.

I would go as far as to say that Catholic teaching on 'economic justice' would support the idea of economic socialism over capitalism, but that would be a very weighty philosophical argument that I'm not really in the mood for.

They may support the kind of socialism we have in place now, but obviously, the church is not calling for total redistribution of wealth. The Bible teaches us to sacrifice to others through our own choices. Charity, volunteer work, etc, not government redistribution.

Did you know that, according to the Chatolic Churche's Social Doctrine, poor people have a right to steal from the rich?

[J. J.]

I like Benedict and with all hope he will purge all the liberals from the church. We don't need "progression" and acceptance of sin. Hopefully the church will push farther to the right.

If he pushes further to the right, he'll push it right off the continent of North America and possibly of Europe as well.  As for the rest of the world, his neither of his priests might be liberal.  The Church has two problems, and if he doesn't address them, he won't need Vatican III, but Trent II.

[Kodratos]

Um, no he didn't. He indicated twice that he didn't care.

He cared enought to post on this topic several times.

[A18]

^ Fair enough. I was just talking about that one post.

[Jake]

I don't think Razinger will push the Church too much more to the right, because it's already about as far right as it can get.  It's just that the Cardinals had a chance here to actually advance the cause of the faith as a whole, and they blew it. 

I know a lot of lapsed Catholics who would return to the Church if it would soften its stand on women and gays.  Most of them (including my mother) still go to church, just not a Catholic one.  Others would return if their modernized their views on requirements for the priest hood.  One of may parent's closest friends was a priest, but chose to leave when he fell in love and wanted to get married.  So to say that liberal Catholics wouldn't go to mass regardless of the Pope's politics is just not true.

I myself have not been a consistant church-goer since college (primarily out of laziness), but told myself after JP II died that I would make the effort to go every week if the new pope gave me reason to want to come back.   I certainly won't be doing that anytime soon with Ratzinger in charge.

The Democrats would win more elections if they moved as to the right like the GOP. Don't give me crap about softening our stance on female priests, gay marriage, abortion, priests getting married, etc. If you support those things, leave the church.  Simple as that.

[patrick1]

Hopefully, the church does split over this.  The true believers can stay in the church and those who don't follow Catholic teachings will leave like they should.

Sad but true.  Most of the liberal Catholics the news talked about with the Gallup poll don't go to Church anyway.  Certain issues are up for change but there are certain issues that you cannot change just because current societal norms calls for it.  If you want a church that still has some ritual with nothing behind it and that caves on every single issue- become an Episcapalian.

that's a very derogatory and condescending attitdue. I agree liberal Catholics should become Episcopalians (or Evangelical Lutherans, since we are fairly similar to the Catholic church service -wise as well), but you appear to think their church is inferior.

Sorry that I came off that way but  I have a hard time fully respecting a church that compromises its values and changes whichever way the wind blowns.  Change is often necessary and needed to revitalize any organization but it should not be the default position.  I was actually taught at school by a former Anglican and converted Catholic priest- brilliant man who left the Anglican community because they had compromised too much.  But hey I could be wrong- so people should worship however they choose.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I don't think Razinger will push the Church too much more to the right, because it's already about as far right as it can get.  It's just that the Cardinals had a chance here to actually advance the cause of the faith as a whole, and they blew it. 

I know a lot of lapsed Catholics who would return to the Church if it would soften its stand on women and gays.  Most of them (including my mother) still go to church, just not a Catholic one.  Others would return if their modernized their views on requirements for the priest hood.  One of may parent's closest friends was a priest, but chose to leave when he fell in love and wanted to get married.  So to say that liberal Catholics wouldn't go to mass regardless of the Pope's politics is just not true.

I myself have not been a consistant church-goer since college (primarily out of laziness), but told myself after JP II died that I would make the effort to go every week if the new pope gave me reason to want to come back.   I certainly won't be doing that anytime soon with Ratzinger in charge.

The Democrats would win more elections if they moved as to the right like the GOP. Don't give me crap about softening our stance on female priests, gay marriage, abortion, priests getting married, etc. If you support those things, leave the church.  Simple as that.

Fine...if they Catholic Church wants to alienate a whole lot of members who don't even disagree with fundamental Church teachings, then they chose the right pope.  There is nothing in the Bible or the words of Christ to suggest that women can't be priests.  And in the early centuries of the Church, priests could be married.  In fact, the college of cardinals include a number of Eastern rite Catholics, who do allow married priests.   

There is no reason whatsoever why the Church couldn't change its stance on women or married priests in an instant and still remain faithful to every one of its principles.

Abortion I understand is a different completely different issue; I don't think anyone is demanding or expection the Church to yield an inch on that.

[Emsworth]

There is nothing in the Bible or the words of Christ to suggest that women can't be priests.

While I certainly do not share the Church's views on these matters (not that it is any of my business, not being Christian), the verses commonly cited are:
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Tim. 2:12).
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law" (1 Cor. 14:34).

However, the Bible does clearly countenance marriage by clergymen:
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach" (1 Tim. 3:2).
"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife" (1 Tim. 3:12).

[??????????]

The bible authorizes married priests but does not authorize female priests.