Allowing non-citizens to vote

[Gustaf]

As far as I know the UK is actually the world's only county to let non-citizens vote in national elections, though only those from Ireland and the Commonwealth. Extending that to EU citizens was actually considered around 1997/8, if I remember right. Most EU countries let their fellow EU people vote in local elections by now.

Migrendel, I totally agree personally that to live wherever you want and enjoy full equality there is actually a human right and that anyone who finds a way around immigration laws -they are worse in Europe than in America, btw- should be encouraged. But that's a losing battle in discussions among European leftwingers for Christ's Sake, so maybe we should just let the subject drop...

Sweden allowed non-citizens to vote on adoption of the euro. But that's just b/c we knew they would vote "YES"...

[KEmperor]

Sweden allowed non-citizens to vote on adoption of the euro. But that's just b/c we knew they would vote "YES"...

Wow, talk about manipulating the vote!  It's completely ridiculous for any state to allow non-citizens to vote.  One of the most important rights a citizen can have is the right to vote.  Only the citizens of a country should decide how that country is governed.  Foreign manipulation is immoral and just plain wrong.

[Michael Z]

Sweden allowed non-citizens to vote on adoption of the euro. But that's just b/c we knew they would vote "YES"...

Wow, talk about manipulating the vote!  It's completely ridiculous for any state to allow non-citizens to vote.  One of the most important rights a citizen can have is the right to vote.  Only the citizens of a country should decide how that country is governed.  Foreign manipulation is immoral and just plain wrong.

I agree with that. As much as I take an interest in American politics, I wholly accept that, as a foreign citizen, I have no right to vote in US elections, just as somebody not holding a British passport shouldn't be allowed to vote in our general election.

[migrendel]

Immoral and just plain wrong. Is this your intellect or your heart? I think it's fairly reasonable to extend equal rights to citizens regardless of citizenship, like they do throughout Europe.

[KEmperor]

Immoral and just plain wrong. Is this your intellect or your heart? I think it's fairly reasonable to extend equal rights to citizens regardless of citizenship, like they do throughout Europe.

Equal rights to citizens regardless of citizenship?  I don't understand.  Citizens of which country?  All American citizens should vote in American elections, all Mexican citizens should vote in Mexican Elections, etc.  I have no problem with immigration, in fact, I beleive that the naturalization process should be made easier.  But, if you are not a citizen of a country, you should not be able to vote there.

[migrendel]

I personally believe that citizenship should only be a voluntary classification, with equal rights accorded to all.

[12th Doctor]

The Constitution applies to US citizens.  That doesn't mean that we should treat non-citizens like crap, but we have to draw the distinction.  If there is a non-citizen in the US who we have stong reason to believe is a terrorist, then at the order of a judge, that person should be allowed to be brought in for questioning and possible detainment.

Likewise, voting rights are for citizens, not everyone.  If these people want to become citizens and vote, I have no problem with that, infact I encourage it, but non-citizens who don't have the commitment, will or desire to be Americans should not be allowed to vote.

[migrendel]

Perhaps a broader context would help you, supersoulty. If your views of American law, God forbid, are accepted by the Supreme Court, the obstacles are still not cleared. The United States, as a member of the world community, the United Nations, and trustee of resident aliens, still has to answer to international law and codes of human rights. Unless you wish this country to defiantly shake its fist at all laws that have a higher authority than ours, your theory doesn't quite work out.

[12th Doctor]

Perhaps a broader context would help you, supersoulty. If your views of American law, God forbid, are accepted by the Supreme Court, the obstacles are still not cleared. The United States, as a member of the world community, the United Nations, and trustee of resident aliens, still has to answer to international law and codes of human rights. Unless you wish this country to defiantly shake its fist at all laws that have a higher authority than ours, your theory doesn't quite work out.

Not at all.  You are taking what I said to the extreme.  I didn't say that we should be allowed to make them 'disappear'.  All I said was that for security purposes, we should be allowed to detain non-citizens if there is REASONIBLE cause to do so.  If you had read my post, you would know that I encoursge ALL LAW-ABIDING immigrants living in this country to become citizens.  The fact is that even if we gave immigrants only 90% of the rights of citizens they would still have 3-times the rights that they would have living in most countries around the world.

[migrendel]

The whole concept of detaining those who are thought suspicious bothers me. The presumption seems to be one of guilt rather than innocence. It is ill-suited to Democracy, and contrary to Malloy v. Hogan, to arrest people at large and then work from there. I also don't see why we shouldn't grant them that most sacred right, the franchise, if we are a nation of E Pluribus Unum and compassionate care, rather than compassionate conservativism.

[KEmperor]

I also don't see why we shouldn't grant them that most sacred right, the franchise, if we are a nation of E Pluribus Unum and compassionate care, rather than compassionate conservativism.

Because they are not OF our nation.  If they emigrate here and become of our nation, then they have the right to participate in our political system.  I'm not advocating that we do not treat them as human beings with the full rights accorded to any other human being.  But, it's one thing to treat them with human decency, it's another to cheapen American citizenship by allowing non-citizens to vote.

[PD]

Non-citizens should not be allowed to vote. If they want to vote, they can become legal and stop sucking us dry. I do not live in Los Angeles County (thank God), but in that county alone, 30 (million or billion, I can't remember which one) of taxpayers dollars were spent in one year taking care of illegal immigrants gang wounds in the hospitals. I don't know about you, but I would rather have that money helping our children's hospitals, seniors, etc. Our own people are more important than illegal gang members. Besides that, I don't think they should be allowed to vote at all unless their legal. Once again, I see this as one of the liberals' strategies for gaining votes among minorities. At least it is in this state. Even if it wasn't, it's still a stupid thing to do. You should not take part in the actions of a country that you are not a citizen of. If you won't become legal, then you don't get the privelige of voting.

[Gustaf]

This is a weird debate. Does anyone actually support ILLEGAL immigrants getting the right to vote? It makes no sense whatsoever.

[KEmperor]

It appears that migrendel does.

[Gustaf]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

[Gustaf]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

lol, that's a way of stopping a debate, eh?

Nice move, huh?

[nclib]

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

Migrendel is no more extreme than Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Buchanan, John Ashcroft, Ann Coulter, etc.

[Gustaf]

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

Migrendel is no more extreme than Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Buchanan, John Ashcroft, Ann Coulter, etc.

No, but I'd say he is AS extreme as these people. Though not as stupid, hateful or insane as some of them, I don't want him to be offended.

[PD]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

I'm an extreme extremist with extreme opinions, but for the other side. Oh, well that would explain why I am COMPLETELY, TOTALLY against allowing illegal immigrants to vote.  Personally, I think they should all be deported.

[Gustaf]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

I'm an extreme extremist with extreme opinions, but for the other side. Oh, well that would explain why I am COMPLETELY, TOTALLY against allowing illegal immigrants to vote.  Personally, I think they should all be deported.

Deported? Btw, your opinion counts as much as Migrendel's, I'm afraid, lol...

[12th Doctor]

The whole concept of detaining those who are thought suspicious bothers me. The presumption seems to be one of guilt rather than innocence. It is ill-suited to Democracy, and contrary to Malloy v. Hogan, to arrest people at large and then work from there. I also don't see why we shouldn't grant them that most sacred right, the franchise, if we are a nation of E Pluribus Unum and compassionate care, rather than compassionate conservativism.

Then let them become citizens.  Geez, didn't I say that a million times?

[KEmperor]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

I'm an extreme extremist with extreme opinions, but for the other side. Oh, well that would explain why I am COMPLETELY, TOTALLY against allowing illegal immigrants to vote.  Personally, I think they should all be deported.

Deported? Btw, your opinion counts as much as Migrendel's, I'm afraid, lol...

Yes, and they cancel each other out, so it all works out!

[PD]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

I'm an extreme extremist with extreme opinions, but for the other side. Oh, well that would explain why I am COMPLETELY, TOTALLY against allowing illegal immigrants to vote.  Personally, I think they should all be deported.

Deported? Btw, your opinion counts as much as Migrendel's, I'm afraid, lol...

Alright. Well, I guess if you're gonna pick on us extremists...

[Gustaf]

It appears that migrendel does.

Migrendel is an extreme extremist with extreme opinions. He doesn't really count...

OK, apart from Migrendel then.

I'm an extreme extremist with extreme opinions, but for the other side. Oh, well that would explain why I am COMPLETELY, TOTALLY against allowing illegal immigrants to vote.  Personally, I think they should all be deported.

Deported? Btw, your opinion counts as much as Migrendel's, I'm afraid, lol...

Alright. Well, I guess if you're gonna pick on us extremists...

I'm a moderate, what do you expect?

[??????????]

Yes Migrendel is right, allow non citizens to vote. That way one party could have thousands of non-citizens brought over to vote for their party. Oh, wait, the democrats did that in 2000.