Racism in Mississippi

[A18]

Suppose you took a poll in Mississippi and asked "are you a racist?"

What would the result be? Opebo seems to think option 3.

[KEmperor]

Very few people are actually going to answer yes, even if they are racist.

[A18]

Very few people are actually going to answer yes, even if they are racist.

I don't see why not.

[dazzleman]

Everybody is racist.  It is a matter of degree.  There is even some anti-black racism among black people.  I've seen it.

Of course, there is anti-white prejudice among blacks, but that's permitted under today's political correctness.

There are really two types of racism:

1.  Doctrinaire racism, almost like Hitler's fanatical belief that Teutons were superior to other ethnic groups, and that Slavs, Jews, etc. were inferior.  This type of racism held sway in the south for a long time, and it fanantically believed that blacks were inferior no matter what, and was often driven by a psychological need to have somebody to look down upon.  This type of racism, I believe, has been severely reduced, but unfortunately not eliminated.

2. Self-interest racism, which is driven by a recognition of the cultural gap between blacks and whites, the higher rates of crime, poverty, illegitimacy, violence, etc. among blacks, and a desire, on a macro scale, to insulate oneself from these negative factors that will degrade quality of life.  It is this type of racism that is prevalent particularly in more liberal sections of the country, like the northeast.  It has produced nearly a complete separation of the races without any of the laws and statutes that maintained racial segregation in the south prior to the civil rights era.

The first type of racism is irrational, and not really a matter of degree, and is very difficult to address other than to try to make it socially unacceptable, which we have largely done.  Ironically, it is the very similarity between many southern whites and blacks in the post-civil war era that fueled this type of racism, which is really the opposite of what is fueling the second type of racism.

The second type of racism can be addressed, but only through a narrowing of the cultural gap between blacks and whites, and convincing enough whites that a significant black presence in their neighborhoods and schools will not degrade their quality of life.  Under current social conditions, this is largely impossible, but we really should be talking about how to make it possible, so that we can have a more organic (naturally occurring) form of racial integration than what we had previously through measures like forced busing, an unnatural and forced mixing of people with little in common, that never really took.

[A18]

So in what way am I racist?

[dazzleman]

So in what way am I racist?

I don't know.  I think that just about everybody practices the second type of racism that I mentioned, even some blacks.  I know some blacks who refuse to live in largely black neighborhoods.

I don't know you personally, so I can't say if you're the first type of racist.  Most people that I know are not, and I will make the same assumption for you, unless you prove otherwise.

[A18]

It is no racist to not want to live in largely black neighborhoods. That is far too sweeping a definition of racism, which effectively says you can not have a distaste for some things other races are largely involved in.

[dazzleman]

It is no racist to not want to live in largely black neighborhoods. That is far too sweeping a definition of racism, which effectively says you can not have a distaste for some things other races are largely involved in.

I define it as a lower form of racism.  It is not black and white, if you'll pardon the pun.

As an example, when I was selling my former house, some of my neighbors were vocal about their desire that I not sell the house to a black person/family.  They were making certain racist assumptions about the effect that a black presence would have on the neighborhood.  They may have been largely correct, but to assume those things without knowing the individual people involved is somewhat prejudiced.  I don't condemn people like this because I understand where they are coming from.  I think they have justified fears that need to be addressed before they can be expected to abandon these attitudes.

[WalterMitty]

is this just white racism?

regardless of what opebo says, it is possible for blacks to be racist against whites too.

[angus]

my assumption is that Mississippians would say they were not.  and that alaskans would say they are not.  and californians would say they are not.  I suppose that the result of this poll would be pretty close to zero anywhere you gave it in the USA, since in our politically correct society one of the worst things you can be called is "racist" even though, in reality, there are far more damaging forms of elitism.  Still, I think it'd be interesting to see the results of any such poll, given scientifically, anywhere in the USA.  It would then be even more interesting to compare the results of that poll to the results of a similar poll taken in, say Amsterdam or China, where the stench of political correctness isn't so strong. 

I will say that I've been residing in MS for about 8 months now, and that this is the least segregated place I've ever lived in.  In the other places I've lived as an adult, CA, TX, MA, and FL mostly, it was rare indeed to find blacks/whites/asians/south asians hanging out together.  My wife commented on that yesterday when she looked outside our dining room window on the lawn of the apartment complex and we saw the children of the Indian couple next door playing with two white children who are children of a Canadian couple in the next building with 5 or 6 black children from the neighborhood nearby.  They were maybe between 6 and 8 years old, and playing basketball using a big Wal-Mart purple blow-up latex ball.  It was touching, really.  I cannot say I would have expected to see that intermingling of races in the other places I've lived.  Granted, Columbus may be an exception, as I don't have much experience living in the Deep South, but my hunch is that it isn't.  Particularly since the US Census bureau keeps good data on this, and places like MS have among the highest "diversity indices" in the nation.  Far higher, for example, than most of those other places I've lived.

to walter, yes I've seen some racism here.  And in all except two case it was black racism against whites.  (In one of those two cases it was Bangladeshi racism against blacks, and in the other it was vietnamese racism against blacks.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I forget who it was that said it and I can't remember it exactly, but an interesting remark on all this went something like this:

"it's ironic that southerners who despise blacks so bitterly are happy to be their neighbors, while northerners are happy to treat them as fellow human beings, just so long as they don't have to live next to them"

An exaggeration o/c, but true up to a point (like most exaggerations).

[J. J.]

I forget who it was that said it and I can't remember it exactly, but an interesting remark on all this went something like this:

"it's ironic that southerners who despise blacks so bitterly are happy to be their neighbors, while northerners are happy to treat them as fellow human beings, just so long as they don't have to live next to them"

An exaggeration o/c, but true up to a point (like most exaggerations).

There is an old saying, dating from segregation, that is:  "In the South, they [White people] don't care how close you [Black people] get, so long as you don't get too high.  In the North, they [White people] don't care how high you [Black people] how high you get, as long as you don't get too close."

[ian]

Option two is the answer for real life, but if asked, some will deny it.  So, realistically option two, but if a poll was actually conducted, option one would be the answer.

[Cashcow]

I will say that I've been residing in MS for about 8 months now, and that this is the least segregated place I've ever lived in.  In the other places I've lived as an adult, CA, TX, MA, and FL mostly, it was rare indeed to find blacks/whites/asians/south asians hanging out together.  My wife commented on that yesterday when she looked outside our dining room window on the lawn of the apartment complex and we saw the children of the Indian couple next door playing with two white children who are children of a Canadian couple in the next building with 5 or 6 black children from the neighborhood nearby.  They were maybe between 6 and 8 years old, and playing basketball using a big Wal-Mart purple blow-up latex ball.  It was touching, really.  I cannot say I would have expected to see that intermingling of races in the other places I've lived. 

The fact that everyone is poor instead of just minorities is generally not a good thing.

@Dazzleman: And no, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to live in black neighborhoods. Many black neighborhoods are very poor, which usually translates to a high crime rate, and that's a fact, albeit an unfortunate one.

[angus]

Don't confuse me with any of those posters who claim to have ethical qualms with racism.

Just to clarify, in case your defensiveness has a point.

again, for reasons that still elude me, I feel the need to point out that I am merely making observations, not suggesting a policy response.

[Cashcow]

Don't confuse me with any of those posters who claim to have ethical qualms with racism.

Just to clarify, in case your defensiveness has a point.

I was talking to Dazzleman. Apparently I left the quote out.

[angus]

ah, well, I'll shut up now. 

[??????????]

I forget who it was that said it and I can't remember it exactly, but an interesting remark on all this went something like this:

"it's ironic that southerners who despise blacks so bitterly are happy to be their neighbors, while northerners are happy to treat them as fellow human beings, just so long as they don't have to live next to them"

An exaggeration o/c, but true up to a point (like most exaggerations).

It's not an exaggeration, it's very true. Poor blacks and whites have gotten along very well in the deep south, despite the lies the hypocrite northerners have.

[opebo]

I forget who it was that said it and I can't remember it exactly, but an interesting remark on all this went something like this:

"it's ironic that southerners who despise blacks so bitterly are happy to be their neighbors, while northerners are happy to treat them as fellow human beings, just so long as they don't have to live next to them"

An exaggeration o/c, but true up to a point (like most exaggerations).

It's not an exaggeration, it's very true. Poor blacks and whites have gotten along very well in the deep south, despite the lies the hypocrite northerners have.

Well the reason for that, over most of their history together, was that the blacks minded their P's and Q's to avoid getting lynched.  Yassah, Mistah States! 

[7,052,770]

I'd say about 10% of whites and 15% of blacks are blatantly racist, and an additional 50-60% of both are somewhat racist.
Of course "somewhat racist" doesn't really mean too much.  Somewhat racist people can still interact and like people of the other race.

[??????????]

I forget who it was that said it and I can't remember it exactly, but an interesting remark on all this went something like this:

"it's ironic that southerners who despise blacks so bitterly are happy to be their neighbors, while northerners are happy to treat them as fellow human beings, just so long as they don't have to live next to them"

An exaggeration o/c, but true up to a point (like most exaggerations).

It's not an exaggeration, it's very true. Poor blacks and whites have gotten along very well in the deep south, despite the lies the hypocrite northerners have.

Well the reason for that, over most of their history together, was that the blacks minded their P's and Q's to avoid getting lynched.  Yassah, Mistah States! 

You're clueless.

[angus]

I'd say about 10% of whites and 15% of blacks are blatantly racist, and an additional 50-60% of both are somewhat racist.
Of course "somewhat racist" doesn't really mean too much.  Somewhat racist people can still interact and like people of the other race.

you taking polls now, or just speculating?

actually, I think it's more than what StatesRights said.  We all know that poor blacks and poor whites and poor vietnamese and poor pakis and poor indians all get along in Mississippi, though not necessarily everywhere else.  (e.g., WashingtonDC, Southern California, etc.)  But I'm trying to argue, at least anecdotally that middle class blacks and whites, at least in Columbus at my apartment complex, do as well.  I described a scene in which the children of low-six figure income white couples were playing along beside 40K blacks and 50K asians.

But then I'm not polling either.  Just speculating and anecdoting.  I'm big on that, you know. 

[7,052,770]

I'd say about 10% of whites and 15% of blacks are blatantly racist, and an additional 50-60% of both are somewhat racist.
Of course "somewhat racist" doesn't really mean too much.  Somewhat racist people can still interact and like people of the other race.

you taking polls now, or just speculating?

actually, I think it's more than what StatesRights said.  We all know that poor blacks and poor whites and poor vietnamese and poor pakis and poor indians all get along in Mississippi, though not necessarily everywhere else.  (e.g., WashingtonDC, Southern California, etc.)  But I'm trying to argue, at least anecdotally that middle class blacks and whites, at least in Columbus at my apartment complex, do as well.  I described a scene in which the children of low-six figure income white couples were playing along beside 40K blacks and 50K asians.

But then I'm not polling either.  Just speculating and anecdoting.  I'm big on that, you know. 

I'm speculating, just calling off what I see.
My high school is a weird combination of the rich white town of Madison and the poor black town of Flora (well actually Flora's not that black, but all the students from Flora are black justabout).  And though almost no one is blatantly racist, a lot of people are to some degree.  Though I almost never hear the n-word, the races rarely mix at all, and do things totally separately.  Our Mr. and Mrs. Madison Central were both black, thanks to the black bloc that put them in.  It's not that anyone hates the other race, but there's definitely a good bit of (hopefully not me included) slight racism.

[AuH2O]

Invariably the word "racism" becomes meaningless because there is no agreed upon definition (and never has been since the word was invented by marxists decades ago).

In my opinion, the best way to go about defining the term, if there was a legitimate reason to do so (which is questionable) would be to construct a sort of response grid to particular questions. Of course then the problem is whether statements of pure fact can possibly be racist-- I don't think so but many (leftists) argue that the act of saying a fact can, indeed, be racist. Any grid would have to be weighted and subdivided:

- Would you be opposed to a person of a different race living next door to you?

-- If yes, which races, or any:
---- race 1
---- race 2 etc.

Obviously the exact details would depend on the race of the respondent.

As a side note, I don't think actions taken in self-preservation can be considered racist, i.e. avoiding high-crime neighborhoods, because to believe otherwise is counter-biological and thus automatically in violation of a central tenet of all sociological study.

[DanielX]

The thing with the old South was that it was a very feudal system: the big plantation owners were the equivalent of the gentry, with slaves and later 'sharecropping' freedmen taking the role of serfs. This type of system placed a strict hierarchy of things, with a middle class largely absent:

-Rich southerner whites (the powerful folks who ruled the South from the 1700s to well into the 20th century)
-Poor southern whites
-Damnyankee (one word) whites
- blacks

Poorer southern whites often used racism as an exuse to feel superior to something, because the system really dumps on the low end of the totem pole - without the blacks, they would be on the bottom. The rich southerner elites used it as a method of keeping power.  Of course, the damnyankees were also an excuse: they wrecked the South, true, during the war, but a lot of places get war-wrecked and recover. Some areas of the South have never recovered from the Civil War / War Between the States / Great American Schism (that's what i'd like to call it?).

The South did not adopt a modern capitalist/industrialist economy or social viewpoint until after World War II; even today, some parts of the 'old South' (the very deep South, generally) still operate on a dynamic not entirely unlike feudalism.

sounds like a pseudomarxist analysis? Yeah. My thing? I analyze things from a capitalist/feudalist perspective. If you want, I can tell you how modern communism resembles a pseudo-meritocratic form of feudalism.