A Taxanomy for Protestants

[DC Al Fine]

One thing that's annoyed me over the years is how the media divide's Protestants on the Evangelical-Mainline scale. This binary scale creates some weird bedfellows. Anglican breakaways and Pentecostals are both "Evangelicals". Likewise BRTD and Bishop Schori are both in the mainline camp despite significant differences.

I decided to do a little side project to properly differentiate between groups.



Here is the political compass chart. The left-right axis refers to theological liberalism and conservatism. The up-down axis is the high church/low church scale, dealing with liturgy, governance and the like.

The top left and bottom right quadrants are pretty easy to name. I called them Mainline and Evangelical since those quadrants are usually what you think of when you hear those terms.

I call the top right quadrant Confessional since most of the churches in that quadrant still hold to one of the historic confessions of Faith (Augsburg, Westminster etc.)

The only one I'm having trouble with is the bottom left quadrant (i.e. BRTDland). Does anyone have a suggestion for a name? Any other questions or comments?

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

'Emergent' is the word that churches like BRTD's often use for themselves, although that's kind of buzzword-y and could potentially refer to some churches in the other quadrants as well. But I can't really think of anything better. Is that okay for now?

This is a really good idea for a project, by the way, and I hope you can finesse and differentiate it more as time goes on. I'm willing to help in any way you think I might be helpful.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

This is an interesting project.  However, remember that BRTD has described himself as "evangelical" on multiple occasions, justifying that on the basis that his own church is evangelical and that it practices adult baptism, which BRTD strongly believes in.  Of course, the 'evangelicalism' practiced by BRTD is more akin to the late 19th/early 20th century use of the term.

As for JCL, I don't recall him going into detail about his views on liturgy and church governance, so I can't speak much on that.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

As for JCL, I don't recall him going into detail about his views on liturgy and church governance, so I can't speak much on that.

JCL is Assemblies of God.

Al, what sorts of positions would you define as characterizing zero on each axis?

[Simfan34]

I suppose, not being a Protestant, and rather high Catholic, I must be at +17 or something like that.

[TJ in Oregon]

I suppose, not being a Protestant, and rather high Catholic, I must be at +17 or something like that.

Nah, that's reserved for the Tridentine-only folks.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

I suppose, not being a Protestant, and rather high Catholic, I must be at +17 or something like that.

Nah, that's reserved for the Tridentine-only folks.

Where would Anglicans with a weird fixation on the Sarum Rite go?

[TJ in Oregon]

I suppose, not being a Protestant, and rather high Catholic, I must be at +17 or something like that.

Nah, that's reserved for the Tridentine-only folks.

Where would Anglicans with a weird fixation on the Sarum Rite go?

Perhaps they could make it an even 20 if they hold to all the other rules the Tridentine folks follow and not just adopt a very extraordinary form of the Mass. Like, for instance, do the Sarum Rite folks still fast every day of Lent? Also, which axis would fasting/mortification contribute to? Is that an aspect of high church practice or is it part of the right/left axis? I could see it going on either.

[Simfan34]

I fast every day of Lent.

[TJ in Oregon]

I fast every day of Lent.

Really? Like following the Ash Wednesday/Good Friday rules the whole time? I've actually only met one other person who does that before and he was a Tridentine/anti-Vatican II type.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

I suppose, not being a Protestant, and rather high Catholic, I must be at +17 or something like that.

Nah, that's reserved for the Tridentine-only folks.

Where would Anglicans with a weird fixation on the Sarum Rite go?

Perhaps they could make it an even 20 if they hold to all the other rules the Tridentine folks follow and not just adopt a very extraordinary form of the Mass. Like, for instance, do the Sarum Rite folks still fast every day of Lent?

It's in my experience a pretty eclectic mix of High Church but not extremely High types, a lot of whom are interested to themselves varying degrees of hippie-ness in medieval English mystics like Julian of Norwich and the Cloud of Unknowing author, and the sort of more-Catholic-than-the-Pope Anglican who would probably be Old Catholic except he (almost always he) perceives them as in some or another way too liberal (whereas Anglicanism in his parish or his area isn't). I could see it anywhere from 8 or 9 for the first type to somewhere around 16 or 17 as an almost direct Anglican equivalent of the Tridentine folks for the second, sloping to the right as it rises. I've never known an Anglican who fasted every day of Lent, specifically, no.

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I could see it going on either too, but my first instinct was left/right, which is why I didn't think to take it into account on the Sarum Rite question.

[Simfan34]

I fast every day of Lent.

Really? Like following the Ash Wednesday/Good Friday rules the whole time? I've actually only met one other person who does that before and he was a Tridentine/anti-Vatican II type.

I do not partake of meat throughout Lent and do make an effort to avoid eating multiple full meals. I'll admit I still have dairy products and whatnot.

Also I'd be a Tridentinist if it was convenient. I'm sure there must be a church that follows it relatively nearby but I cannot be bothered to look for it, much less travel to attend it. But if there was a church near me offering a Tridentine Mass, I'd attend it.

[CatoMinor]

Idk, I guess I'd be somewhere around here.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

I'm not going to bother putting everyone's name up on the chart, but this is how R&P Christians would rank, from most progressive to most conservative.

opebo > BRTD > Progressive Realist > Harry > TDAS04 > Ernest/True Federalist > Scott > ilikeverin > Nathan > General Mung Beans > Jbrase > Simfan34 > GaussLaw > DC Al Fine > Cassius > TJ in Wisco > Never Convinced > BushOklahoma > JCL > jmfcst

I thought I'd include opebo and jmfcst for good measure.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

I'm not going to bother putting everyone's name up on the chart, but this is how R&P Christians would rank, from most progressive to most conservative.

opebo > BRTD > Progressive Realist > Harry > TDAS04 > Ernest/True Federalist > Scott > ilikeverin > Nathan > General Mung Beans > Jbrase > Simfan34 > GaussLaw > DC Al Fine > Cassius > TJ in Wisco > Never Convinced > BushOklahoma > JCL > jmfcst

I thought I'd include opebo and jmfcst for good measure.

I think Harry might be to the left of Progressive Realist. I know you really dislike jmfcst but putting him to the right of JCL strikes me as a calumny. Otherwise this looks good to me.

I'm still hoping Al explains how he'd define the zero values on these axes.

[DC Al Fine]

I'm still hoping Al explains how he'd define the zero values on these axes.

This is still a first draft. I hadn't really thought out what (0, 0) is. I guess that's part of the problem; we think of everything relatively in Protestantism.

What's the average United Methodist like? That church seems pretty centrist, so perhaps that's a good starting point.

[Simfan34]

I don't see any particular reason I'd be to the left of TJ. Then again I'm not a Protestant. But what is stopping at applying this to all Christians, short of crowding of the first quadrant?

[Cassius]

One thing that's annoyed me over the years is how the media divide's Protestants on the Evangelical-Mainline scale. This binary scale creates some weird bedfellows. Anglican breakaways and Pentecostals are both "Evangelicals". Likewise BRTD and Bishop Schori are both in the mainline camp despite significant differences.

I decided to do a little side project to properly differentiate between groups.



Here is the political compass chart. The left-right axis refers to theological liberalism and conservatism. The up-down axis is the high church/low church scale, dealing with liturgy, governance and the like.

The top left and bottom right quadrants are pretty easy to name. I called them Mainline and Evangelical since those quadrants are usually what you think of when you hear those terms.

I call the top right quadrant Confessional since most of the churches in that quadrant still hold to one of the historic confessions of Faith (Augsburg, Westminster etc.)

The only one I'm having trouble with is the bottom left quadrant (i.e. BRTDland). Does anyone have a suggestion for a name? Any other questions or comments?

This is really interesting DC. However, how are you defining theologically 'conservative' and 'liberal'? Is it to do primarily with one's attitude to scripture (I don't know, the most conservative position might be accepting the Bible as entirely composed of liteal truths, the most liberal entriely rejecting the historicity of the Bible), how scripture informs one's politics, or a bit of both?

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

I'm not going to bother putting everyone's name up on the chart, but this is how R&P Christians would rank, from most progressive to most conservative.

opebo > BRTD > Progressive Realist > Harry > TDAS04 > Ernest/True Federalist > Scott > ilikeverin > Nathan > General Mung Beans > Jbrase > Simfan34 > GaussLaw > DC Al Fine > Cassius > TJ in Wisco > Never Convinced > BushOklahoma > JCL > jmfcst

I thought I'd include opebo and jmfcst for good measure.

I think Harry might be to the left of Progressive Realist. I know you really dislike jmfcst but putting him to the right of JCL strikes me as a calumny. Otherwise this looks good to me.

I'm still hoping Al explains how he'd define the zero values on these axes.

While you probably have a point and my intense dislike for jmfcst did cloud my judgment somewhat, JCL and jmfcst would probably make good bedfellows with respect to theological conservatism.  (That is, they would make good bedfellows if it were allowed by the Bible. )  But, yes, gun to my head, I'd probably put JCL a ledge ahead of jmfcst.  I mean, jmfcst never went as far as to suggest that the Bible demands that every nation levy a flat tax on its citizens, as far as I recall.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

I'm still hoping Al explains how he'd define the zero values on these axes.

This is still a first draft. I hadn't really thought out what (0, 0) is. I guess that's part of the problem; we think of everything relatively in Protestantism.

What's the average United Methodist like? That church seems pretty centrist, so perhaps that's a good starting point.

If you're including liberal/Unitarian Christian sects, why not Unitarian Universalism?  That church is about as big tent as you could get, though I'm not sure if that's what you had in mind.

Not that UMC would be a bad choice, though.  PC(USA) might be a good candidate, as well.

[DC Al Fine]

I don't see any particular reason I'd be to the left of TJ. Then again I'm not a Protestant. But what is stopping at applying this to all Christians, short of crowding of the first quadrant?

Catholicism muddies the waters quite a bit. It's simpler to just map Protestantism.

This is really interesting DC. However, how are you defining theologically 'conservative' and 'liberal'? Is it to do primarily with one's attitude to scripture (I don't know, the most conservative position might be accepting the Bible as entirely composed of liteal truths, the most liberal entriely rejecting the historicity of the Bible), how scripture informs one's politics, or a bit of both?

Mostly one's attitude towards theological issues. I don't really want to get political here. It will be mostly stuff like creationism, female clergy etc.

I'm still hoping Al explains how he'd define the zero values on these axes.

This is still a first draft. I hadn't really thought out what (0, 0) is. I guess that's part of the problem; we think of everything relatively in Protestantism.

What's the average United Methodist like? That church seems pretty centrist, so perhaps that's a good starting point.

If you're including liberal/Unitarian Christian sects, why not Unitarian Universalism?  That church is about as big tent as you could get, though I'm not sure if that's what you had in mind.

Not that UMC would be a bad choice, though.  PC(USA) might be a good candidate, as well.

I don't think UU's would be a good centre position. Do a majority of Unitarians even think of themselves as Christians?

[muon2]

UMC is probably well suited to be at the center from left-to-right, but it is fairly hierarchical in governance so it might be a bit above the center.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

This is really interesting DC. However, how are you defining theologically 'conservative' and 'liberal'? Is it to do primarily with one's attitude to scripture (I don't know, the most conservative position might be accepting the Bible as entirely composed of liteal truths, the most liberal entriely rejecting the historicity of the Bible), how scripture informs one's politics, or a bit of both?

Mostly one's attitude towards theological issues. I don't really want to get political here. It will be mostly stuff like creationism, female clergy etc.

Yeah, theological issues that are or can be politicized but are not, themselves, political issues seems like a wise set of choices to me as well.

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This is still a first draft. I hadn't really thought out what (0, 0) is. I guess that's part of the problem; we think of everything relatively in Protestantism.

What's the average United Methodist like? That church seems pretty centrist, so perhaps that's a good starting point.
[/quote]

If you're including liberal/Unitarian Christian sects, why not Unitarian Universalism?  That church is about as big tent as you could get, though I'm not sure if that's what you had in mind.

Not that UMC would be a bad choice, though.  PC(USA) might be a good candidate, as well.
[/quote]

I don't think UU's would be a good centre position. Do a majority of Unitarians even think of themselves as Christians?
[/quote]

Probably not. UUs would be a terrible center position--they're big tent within their own context but that context overall is further left than pretty much anything else that we've been discussed so far.

UMC is probably well suited to be at the center from left-to-right, but it is fairly hierarchical in governance so it might be a bit above the center.

This was my thought as well. UCC might be a better choice for the vertical center since it's congregationalist but not completely decentralized, but by the same token it would be rather to the left.

[afleitch]

Interesting. Though it's American centric naturally, from denominations to the whole 'libertarian' axis thing.

[Never]

I'm not going to bother putting everyone's name up on the chart, but this is how R&P Christians would rank, from most progressive to most conservative.

opebo > BRTD > Progressive Realist > Harry > TDAS04 > Ernest/True Federalist > Scott > ilikeverin > Nathan > General Mung Beans > Jbrase > Simfan34 > GaussLaw > DC Al Fine > Cassius > TJ in Wisco > Never Convinced > BushOklahoma > JCL > jmfcst

I thought I'd include opebo and jmfcst for good measure.

Yay, I made it on your list (I guess I'm at the right place too)!

If it matters at all for classification purposes, I'm non-denominational (I would pick the Southern Baptist Convention if I had to align with a denomination).