Presidential Rankings
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 02:11:59 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  U.S. Presidential Election Results (Moderator: Dereich)
  Presidential Rankings
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Author Topic: Presidential Rankings  (Read 58759 times)
Demrepdan
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,305


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2003, 11:44:32 PM »


I agree that "M" has made a good list here.  I ask why were you so critical of my list when you praised "M's"?  Our lists (at least, our top and bottom 5's) are very similar.

I didn't mean to be so critical of your list, and if I was I apologize. The main disagreement I had with your list, however, is that you had Ronald Reagan listed as number one. And George Washington above Abraham Lincoln. But I won't argue that those two Presidents deserve to be in at least the top 5 or top 10 category.

I look forward to your list.  Yes, it takes time to make a *good* list.  I researched each of the presidents, but I confess, I did all of it in just one weekend's time...which doesn't allow for an accurate ranking.  Good luck!

Oh no. lol Now I feel like all eyes are on me for my list. lol
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2003, 11:49:47 PM »

Here is my list: It is pretty thorough, and in part I have referenced my list using the following book:  

Kunhardt, Philip B., Jr., Philip B. Kunhardt III, Peter W. Kunhardt. The American President. Riverhead Books, New York, NY

The Following Eight Presidents were placed under the Category: The Candidate in the above referenced material.

Chapter One lists those Presidents who had a Heroic Posture:

1. George Washington: America's First Hero.
2. William Henry Harrison:  A Manufactured Hero.
3. Ulysses S. Grant: In over his head.
4. Dwight D. Eisenhower: The Heroic Image.

Chapter Two:  Compromise Choices

5. Franklin Pierce: The Dark Horse Candidate.
6. James A. Garfield: Awaiting Destiny.
7. Warren G. Harding: "I should never have been here."
8. Gerald R. Ford: Healing the Nation.

Politics and The Presidency-

Chapter Three: The Professional Politician-

9. Martin Van Buren: "The Little Magician.
10. James Buchanan: "Avoiding Conflict."
11. Abraham Lincoln:  Politics with a Purpose.
12. Lyndon B. Johnson: The Art of Political Bluster.

Chapter Four: An Independent Cast of Mind-

13. John Adams: Going it Alone.
14. Zachary Taylor: "Old Rough and Ready."
15. Rutherford B. Hayes: "No Fondness for Political Life."
16. Jimmy Carter: The Outsider.

A Matter of Destiny-

Chapter Five: Family Ties-

17. John Quincy Adams-His Father's Son.
18. Benjamin Harrison: "Nobody's Grandson."
19. Franklin D. Roosevelt: Possession by Right.
20. John F. Kennedy: Vindicating the Irish.

Chapter Six: Happenstance-

21. John Tyler: Establishing the Precedent.
22. Millard Fillmore: "Called by a Bereavement."
23. Andrew Johnson: "Elect of an Assassin."
24. Chester A. Arthur: "Gentleman Boss."
25. Harry S. Truman: American Optimist.

Executive Vision-

Chapter Seven: The American Way-

26. Thomas Jefferson: His "Empire of Liberty."
27. Calvin Coolidge: Preacher of Prosperity.
28. Herbert C. Hoover: American Individualist.
29. Ronald Reagan: An American Dreamer.

Chapter Eight: The World Stage-

30. James Monroe: A vision for the New Hemisphere.
31. William McKinley: Reluctant Apostle.
32. Woodrow Wilson: American Idealist.
33. George [Herbert Walker] Bush: Personal Contact.

An Office and its Powers-

Chapter Nine: Expanding Power-

34. Andrew Jackson: The Power of the People.
35. Grover Cleveland: Ugly Honest.
36. Theodore Roosevelt: "Rough Rider."
37. Richard M. Nixon: Abuse of Power.

Chapter Ten: The Balance of Power-

38. James Madison: Creating the Balance.
39. James K. Polk: "Young History."
40. William Howard Taft: Preserving the Balance.
41. William Jefferson Clinton: Second Chances.


Since my book was published just after the Impeachment and Acquittal of William J. Clinton, I will place George W. Bush under the following Category, even though his Presidency is not over!

I place George W. Bush under Chapter One's: Heroic Posture Sub-Category; also, under: Chapter Four's: The Independent Cast of Mind; also, under: Family Ties;  under the Happenstance Sub-Category of Chapter six; Under Eight's World Stage Sub-Category of Presidents; and last but not least: Chapter Nine's: Expanding Power Sub-Category.

Why does a Democrat put G.W.B. under so many different sub-categories? I only call them as I see them, and this is how I see G.W.: As a Heroic Figure, He has an Independent Mind, he has Family Ties to the Oval Office, Happenstance? The 2000 Election Debacle, the World Stage-Look what he's done as far as his foreign accomplishments so far! Also, I place him under the Expanding Powers Sub-Category: He wanted a new Cabinet: Department of Homeland Security-He Got It!

I hate to admit: He falls under so many Categories and Sub-Categories.

Questions/Comments? Want to chat: AOL: micma9
Logged
Inmate Trump
GWBFan
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,022


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -7.30

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2003, 11:50:51 PM »
« Edited: December 14, 2003, 11:53:26 PM by GWBFan »


I agree that "M" has made a good list here.  I ask why were you so critical of my list when you praised "M's"?  Our lists (at least, our top and bottom 5's) are very similar.

I didn't mean to be so critical of your list, and if I was I apologize. The main disagreement I had with your list, however, is that you had Ronald Reagan listed as number one. And George Washington above Abraham Lincoln. But I won't argue that those two Presidents deserve to be in at least the top 5 or top 10 category.

I look forward to your list.  Yes, it takes time to make a *good* list.  I researched each of the presidents, but I confess, I did all of it in just one weekend's time...which doesn't allow for an accurate ranking.  Good luck!

Oh no. lol Now I feel like all eyes are on me for my list. lol


At least two eyes are watching..... :-)

I think I misunderstood when it all comes down to it.  No apology necessary.
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2003, 11:58:05 PM »

Here is my list: It is pretty thorough, and in part I have referenced my list using the following book:  

Kunhardt, Philip B., Jr., Philip B. Kunhardt III, Peter W. Kunhardt. The American President. Riverhead Books, New York, NY

The Following Eight Presidents were placed under the Category: The Candidate in the above referenced material.

Chapter One lists those Presidents who had a Heroic Posture:

1. George Washington: America's First Hero.
2. William Henry Harrison:  A Manufactured Hero.
3. Ulysses S. Grant: In over his head.
4. Dwight D. Eisenhower: The Heroic Image.

Chapter Two:  Compromise Choices

5. Franklin Pierce: The Dark Horse Candidate.
6. James A. Garfield: Awaiting Destiny.
7. Warren G. Harding: "I should never have been here."
8. Gerald R. Ford: Healing the Nation.

Politics and The Presidency-

Chapter Three: The Professional Politician-

9. Martin Van Buren: "The Little Magician.
10. James Buchanan: "Avoiding Conflict."
11. Abraham Lincoln:  Politics with a Purpose.
12. Lyndon B. Johnson: The Art of Political Bluster.

Chapter Four: An Independent Cast of Mind-

13. John Adams: Going it Alone.
14. Zachary Taylor: "Old Rough and Ready."
15. Rutherford B. Hayes: "No Fondness for Political Life."
16. Jimmy Carter: The Outsider.

A Matter of Destiny-

Chapter Five: Family Ties-

17. John Quincy Adams-His Father's Son.
18. Benjamin Harrison: "Nobody's Grandson."
19. Franklin D. Roosevelt: Possession by Right.
20. John F. Kennedy: Vindicating the Irish.

Chapter Six: Happenstance-

21. John Tyler: Establishing the Precedent.
22. Millard Fillmore: "Called by a Bereavement."
23. Andrew Johnson: "Elect of an Assassin."
24. Chester A. Arthur: "Gentleman Boss."
25. Harry S. Truman: American Optimist.

Executive Vision-

Chapter Seven: The American Way-

26. Thomas Jefferson: His "Empire of Liberty."
27. Calvin Coolidge: Preacher of Prosperity.
28. Herbert C. Hoover: American Individualist.
29. Ronald Reagan: An American Dreamer.

Chapter Eight: The World Stage-

30. James Monroe: A vision for the New Hemisphere.
31. William McKinley: Reluctant Apostle.
32. Woodrow Wilson: American Idealist.
33. George [Herbert Walker] Bush: Personal Contact.

An Office and its Powers-

Chapter Nine: Expanding Power-

34. Andrew Jackson: The Power of the People.
35. Grover Cleveland: Ugly Honest.
36. Theodore Roosevelt: "Rough Rider."
37. Richard M. Nixon: Abuse of Power.

Chapter Ten: The Balance of Power-

38. James Madison: Creating the Balance.
39. James K. Polk: "Young History."
40. William Howard Taft: Preserving the Balance.
41. William Jefferson Clinton: Second Chances.


Since my book was published just after the Impeachment and Acquittal of William J. Clinton, I will place George W. Bush under the following Category, even though his Presidency is not over!

I place George W. Bush under Chapter One's: Heroic Posture Sub-Category; also, under: Chapter Four's: The Independent Cast of Mind; also, under: Family Ties;  under the Happenstance Sub-Category of Chapter six; Under Eight's World Stage Sub-Category of Presidents; and last but not least: Chapter Nine's: Expanding Power Sub-Category.

Why does a Democrat put G.W.B. under so many different sub-categories? I only call them as I see them, and this is how I see G.W.: As a Heroic Figure, He has an Independent Mind, he has Family Ties to the Oval Office, Happenstance? The 2000 Election Debacle, the World Stage-Look what he's done as far as his foreign accomplishments so far! Also, I place him under the Expanding Powers Sub-Category: He wanted a new Cabinet: Department of Homeland Security-He Got It!

I hate to admit: He falls under so many Categories and Sub-Categories.

Questions/Comments? Want to chat: AOL: micma9

My Favorite Ten in the order of Reverence to me:

1. George Washington
2. Abraham Lincoln.
3. Thomas Jefferson.
4. Franklin D. Roosevelt.
5. Ronald W. Reagan.
6. William J. Clinton.
7. Grover Cleveland.
8. Richard M. Nixon.
9. John F. Kennedy.
10. George Walker Bush.

     There you have my top 10! And David Letterman should Boast! Ha
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2003, 12:10:42 AM »

Mr. Fresh,

     Why did I surprise you? Just Curious, As Usual.
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2003, 12:44:51 AM »

Mr. Fresh,

     Why did I surprise you? Just Curious, As Usual.

Upon your recent comments thrashing Republicans, I was surprised to see President Bush make your top 10.
I don't "THRASH" Republicans, I have voted Republican many times. Although I am a Democrat, I do vote Republican "Upon Demand." I still cannot see a Dean Presidency. If he becomes the nominee, this DEM will be voting Republican!
Hey, Mr. Fresh, Will Dick Cheney be on G.W.'s Ticket again?
Logged
StevenNick
StevenNick99
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,899


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2003, 01:05:05 AM »

I think FDR is perhaps the most overrated president in U.S. history.  Most economist have come to the conclusion that he prolonged the Great Depression.  He interned the Japanese.  He created the welfare state that we're still paying for today.  He gutted the military putting us at risk when war came knocking at our door.  He fabricated the case for going to war.  Communists were infultrating his administration and he was asleep at the wheel.

Did this man do any lasting good for this country?  I don't see that he did.  To the contrary, I think he did more long term damage to the country than almost any other politician in American history.

Same with Truman.  Someone commented on this thread that even though Truman embraced failed economic policies, he was tough on Communism.  He wasn't though.  "Containment" was a sham.  He didn't contain Communism during his administration, rather, Communism spread.  Not long before announcing the policy of containment, Truman was still referring to Stalin as "Uncle Joe."

Reagan was the first president since the Bolshevic Revolution who actually saw Communism lose ground during his administration.  He recognized that the Soviet Union's economy couldn't withstand an arms race with the United States.  By walking out of the Reykjavik during the arms reduction talks, Reagan doomed the Soviet Union.  They were struggling to catch up as we built a military machine.  He swept away the Soviet pawn of Grenada and halted Communism's advance in South America.

Reagan was just about the only president who actually stood up to the USSR.  Who knows how much earlier the USSR would've fallen had Truman or FDR or Kennedy or Nixon or any other Cold War presidents had stood up to them?
Logged
CHRISTOPHER MICHAE
Guest
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2003, 01:31:16 AM »

I think FDR is perhaps the most overrated president in U.S. history.  Most economist have come to the conclusion that he prolonged the Great Depression.  He interned the Japanese.  He created the welfare state that we're still paying for today.  He gutted the military putting us at risk when war came knocking at our door.  He fabricated the case for going to war.  Communists were infultrating his administration and he was asleep at the wheel.

Did this man do any lasting good for this country?  I don't see that he did.  To the contrary, I think he did more long term damage to the country than almost any other politician in American history.

Same with Truman.  Someone commented on this thread that even though Truman embraced failed economic policies, he was tough on Communism.  He wasn't though.  "Containment" was a sham.  He didn't contain Communism during his administration, rather, Communism spread.  Not long before announcing the policy of containment, Truman was still referring to Stalin as "Uncle Joe."

Reagan was the first president since the Bolshevic Revolution who actually saw Communism lose ground during his administration.  He recognized that the Soviet Union's economy couldn't withstand an arms race with the United States.  By walking out of the Reykjavik during the arms reduction talks, Reagan doomed the Soviet Union.  They were struggling to catch up as we built a military machine.  He swept away the Soviet pawn of Grenada and halted Communism's advance in South America.

Reagan was just about the only president who actually stood up to the USSR.  Who knows how much earlier the USSR would've fallen had Truman or FDR or Kennedy or Nixon or any other Cold War presidents had stood up to them?
You are misinformed on two points. One, FDR had to do whatever he could try to do, times were desperate, 25% of the U.S. workforce were out of work. Hoover thought that somehow, if he just let things be, we'd come out of it, that didn't happen. Tough times call for Tough measures, even seemingly idiotic, thoughtless measures, but someone had to try something. Second, if Kennedy was not assassinated, he would have put an end to the Cold War before it got out of hand like it did. He had already dealt with the Cuban Missile Crisis Successfully. Russia had already been put on notice by Kennedy. As far as other Presidents, Johnson was dealing with the Vietnam Crisis, that Crisis that destroyed him, politically and personally. Nixon, was trying to figure out how he was going to keep his promise of ending the Vietnam Crisis, and became pre-occupied with opening doors with China and then Watergate, Carter, he had the Iranian Hostage Crisis, and of course, the fledgling Economy. So, Reagan was the only President with enough time on his hands to call an end to Communism in Russia.
Logged
Demrepdan
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,305


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2003, 01:40:37 AM »

I think FDR is perhaps the most overrated president in U.S. history.  Most economist have come to the conclusion that he prolonged the Great Depression.  He interned the Japanese.  He created the welfare state that we're still paying for today.  He gutted the military putting us at risk when war came knocking at our door.  He fabricated the case for going to war.  Communists were infultrating his administration and he was asleep at the wheel.

Did this man do any lasting good for this country?  I don't see that he did.  To the contrary, I think he did more long term damage to the country than almost any other politician in American history.

Same with Truman.  Someone commented on this thread that even though Truman embraced failed economic policies, he was tough on Communism.  He wasn't though.  "Containment" was a sham.  He didn't contain Communism during his administration, rather, Communism spread.  Not long before announcing the policy of containment, Truman was still referring to Stalin as "Uncle Joe."

Reagan was the first president since the Bolshevic Revolution who actually saw Communism lose ground during his administration.  He recognized that the Soviet Union's economy couldn't withstand an arms race with the United States.  By walking out of the Reykjavik during the arms reduction talks, Reagan doomed the Soviet Union.  They were struggling to catch up as we built a military machine.  He swept away the Soviet pawn of Grenada and halted Communism's advance in South America.

Reagan was just about the only president who actually stood up to the USSR.  Who knows how much earlier the USSR would've fallen had Truman or FDR or Kennedy or Nixon or any other Cold War presidents had stood up to them?

Allow me to sum up your post.

Democrats bad....Republicans..goooood.
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2003, 08:24:09 AM »

1. FDR
2. T. Roosevelt
3. Lincoln
4. Washington
5. Truman

-----

42. John Tyler
41.  James Buchanan
40. Herbert Hoover
39. William henry Harrison
38. Ronald Reagan

This is what I tried (and, I think, was successful) to avoid in my own ranking.  Doing a true, unbiased presidential ranking, it would be near impossible to rank Reagan so low.  Republican or Democrat, you have to admit the good he did for the country and for the world.
He is responsible for a huge chunk of that national debt that haunts us to this day.  His illegal wars in South america slaughtered thousands.  Now, he is seemingly a good guy, I'll give you that, but he was not a good president.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2003, 10:39:30 AM »

I think FDR is perhaps the most overrated president in U.S. history.  Most economist have come to the conclusion that he prolonged the Great Depression.  He interned the Japanese.  He created the welfare state that we're still paying for today.  He gutted the military putting us at risk when war came knocking at our door.  He fabricated the case for going to war.  Communists were infultrating his administration and he was asleep at the wheel.

Did this man do any lasting good for this country?  I don't see that he did.  To the contrary, I think he did more long term damage to the country than almost any other politician in American history.

Same with Truman.  Someone commented on this thread that even though Truman embraced failed economic policies, he was tough on Communism.  He wasn't though.  "Containment" was a sham.  He didn't contain Communism during his administration, rather, Communism spread.  Not long before announcing the policy of containment, Truman was still referring to Stalin as "Uncle Joe."

Reagan was the first president since the Bolshevic Revolution who actually saw Communism lose ground during his administration.  He recognized that the Soviet Union's economy couldn't withstand an arms race with the United States.  By walking out of the Reykjavik during the arms reduction talks, Reagan doomed the Soviet Union.  They were struggling to catch up as we built a military machine.  He swept away the Soviet pawn of Grenada and halted Communism's advance in South America.

Reagan was just about the only president who actually stood up to the USSR.  Who knows how much earlier the USSR would've fallen had Truman or FDR or Kennedy or Nixon or any other Cold War presidents had stood up to them?

I agree with most of what you said about FDR, but don't blame Truman.  Remember, he had to deal with a mess that was left to him by the privious president.  He was though on communism.  It wasn't his fault the communists got half of europe, FDR negotiated that deal, not him.  He cut back big time on the waste in the new deal.  He cut back to the point where every program was managible and sustainable.  It was later that the Democrats reexpanded the programs to their current levels.  Personaly, I think Truman was one of our best president Democrat or Republican.
Logged
jravnsbo
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,888


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2003, 10:48:25 AM »

I'd agree I always liked Truman and TR ( the ones that said Bully and the Buck stops here)   larger than life and didn't care what EITHER political party thought they just did what was right.

Logged
Inmate Trump
GWBFan
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,022


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -7.30

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2003, 11:59:09 AM »

Actually, Truman wasn't that great...IMO, of course.

He did *let* communism spread.  He sat back and did nothing while China fell to communism, creating a whole slew of problems that are still haunting us today.  His war in Korea hurt his approval ratings, which fell to the low 20s at the end of his administration.  He finished WWII (FDR actually won it--in the same way that Reagan won the Cold War and G.H.W. Bush finished it up), I'll give him that.

But you have to keep in mind the times in which Truman led.  The Cold War was beginning to heat up, and he literally did nothing.  He actually had (as is now proven, but was in doubt during the time) Soviet spies in his administration.  While those accusations arose, he wasn't even open to the possibility that they might be right--allowing Soviet spies to freely give top secret information to the enemy.

No matter what good he did, that lack of responsibility on his part and the complete disregard of the growing threat of communism, IMO, makes him a bad president.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2003, 12:51:58 PM »

FDR was the greatest President ever, and you can't change my mind on that.

More on others soon(ish)
Logged
Wakie
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,767


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2003, 01:08:31 PM »

Here's my list ... I used the same criteria and assigned each item a 5 point value.  I also only paid attention to what each individual did while President (Eisenhower & Grant get no points for military service, Jefferson gets no points for the Constituition).  Here's how my totals came down ... the higher the #, the better the rating (note, William Henry Harrison & James Garfield received even 30's because they really didn't have time to do anything).  Additionally I left George W Bush off the list as I don't think you can rate a President until they've been out of office for at least 2 years.

Harding - 20
Van Buren - 22
Grant - 22
Fillmore - 23
B. Harrison - 23
Ford - 23
Coolidge - 25
Carter - 25
Buchanan - 26
Pierce - 27
Hoover - 27
Adams - 29
Tyler - 29
LBJ - 29
Nixon - 29
H. Harrison - 30
Garfield - 30
Taft - 30
Reagan - 30 -> High in some areas, low in others, he balances out at a 30
Jackson - 31
Hayes - 31
Arthur - 31
McKinley - 31
Wilson - 31
Truman - 31
Eisenhower - 31
HW Bush - 31
Taylor - 32
A. Johnson - 32
Clinton - 32
Quincy Adams - 34
Cleveland - 34
Monroe - 35
Jefferson - 36 -> hurt by moral authority score
JFK - 37 -> helped by charisma score
Madison - 38 -> War of 1812
Polk - 38 -> high morality score & Mexican American war
Washington - 39
T. Roosevelt - 42
Lincoln - 43
FDR - 44
Logged
M
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,491


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2003, 02:38:44 PM »

I do think Reagan should be in the top 5 or at least 10, and not for partisan reasons. He won the Cold War against great domestic and international opposition, and I think more importantly, he restoreds the faith of the American people in their government. After the murders of the Kennedies and Martin Luther King, the Vietnam War, the culture Wars, Watergate, and to top it all off, the disaster of Carter (economic maliase and all), all against the backdrop of the Cold War, the nation had little left to believe in. Suddenly here's this old actor from the patriotic WW2 era, symbolizing the even older proud American era of the open frontier (the "Cowboy"). He makes people believe in the country again, then wins the forty year Cold War (not entirely his doing, I admit, but he played a large part.) After that, most Americans believed again in ideals higher than personal security, in the cause of freedom.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2003, 04:06:07 PM »

Actually, Truman wasn't that great...IMO, of course.

He did *let* communism spread.  He sat back and did nothing while China fell to communism, creating a whole slew of problems that are still haunting us today.  His war in Korea hurt his approval ratings, which fell to the low 20s at the end of his administration.  He finished WWII (FDR actually won it--in the same way that Reagan won the Cold War and G.H.W. Bush finished it up), I'll give him that.

But you have to keep in mind the times in which Truman led.  The Cold War was beginning to heat up, and he literally did nothing.  He actually had (as is now proven, but was in doubt during the time) Soviet spies in his administration.  While those accusations arose, he wasn't even open to the possibility that they might be right--allowing Soviet spies to freely give top secret information to the enemy.

No matter what good he did, that lack of responsibility on his part and the complete disregard of the growing threat of communism, IMO, makes him a bad president.

Truman didn't "sit back while communism spread".  He created the Defense Department and the CIA.  What could he have done in China that would have made any major difference.  If he went into China, we would have had fewer troops in Europe or in Japan to handle the reconstruction there.  Probably every administration from FDR to Reagan had Soviet spies in it somewhere.  The difference is that Truman did not try to shield these people as FDR did.  Truman did a good job in dealing with Korea.  The mess there was MacArthur's fault.  What was Truman supposed to do?  Use the bomb?  Start WWIII 4 years after WWII had ended?  That would have been great for us (sarcasim)!  Most of the communists in Truman's administration were hold-outs from FDR.  You can't fault Truman for that.  He and FDR didn't know each other very well.  He had a total of three meetings with FDR while he was vice-pres.  Truman didn't just end WWII.  He ended it decisivly by dropping the bomb and not throwing millions of more live onto the fire or giving half of Japan to the Soviets.  Truman was very worried about the Soviet threat, but first he knew we had to concentrate on rebuilding the world inorder to prevent Western Europe and Japan from falling to the communists.  Before you start assigning blame, remember that the Soviets didn't really start to flex their muscles until the 1950's and Ike didn't do much more about it than Truman did.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2003, 04:48:45 PM »

Mr. Fresh,

     Why did I surprise you? Just Curious, As Usual.

Upon your recent comments thrashing Republicans, I was surprised to see President Bush make your top 10.
I don't "THRASH" Republicans, I have voted Republican many times. Although I am a Democrat, I do vote Republican "Upon Demand." I still cannot see a Dean Presidency. If he becomes the nominee, this DEM will be voting Republican!
Hey, Mr. Fresh, Will Dick Cheney be on G.W.'s Ticket again?

Well I don't know for sure, Wink but I don't see Dick running again with Bush.  I can see Rice running with him, she'd get a lot of support for sure, but that's just a theory.

Rice would be more energizing than Cheney.  I have nothing against Cheney, but I think that he was a poor chioce to begin with.  He did get the administration off the ground, but there were better chioces I think.  Besides, Cheney isn't going to run for president.  It's time to think about the future.  Rice would definatly have my support.
Logged
Inmate Trump
GWBFan
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,022


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -7.30

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2003, 05:35:19 PM »

I think there are a whole slew of potential candidates for vice president.

Unfortunately, Bush has already stated that he sees no reason to kick Cheney off the ticket.

Oh well.  Don't get me wrong, I like Cheney, but, as many people have already said, he adds nothing.  I'd really like to see Giuliani on there, though he's planning on a senate run in '06.  

Maybe Bill Owens.  Rice would be great, as would Powell.

At least, with Cheney, Bush is sure to get Wyoming...oh wait, he was sure to get that anyway.
Logged
emergingDmajority1
Rookie
**
Posts: 245


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2003, 06:18:54 PM »

Clinton should be in the top 5, peace, prosperity, and progress in those 8 years that we'll never see again. His record flattens reagan.

W Bush will end up probably somewhere between 15-25

FDR would be #1
Logged
JNB
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 395


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2003, 06:43:38 PM »



  Clinton was in the right place at the right time and had a amazing string of luck on both the international and economic fronts. When Clinton came into office, the major international threat that the US faced, the USSR was gone, and it looked like the Middle East was on the mend, the only real problem at the time was Bosnia, and that was a small country whose impact was strictly local.

  As for the economic front, the fact a GOP congress was elected in 94 held the line of Clintons spending hikes(conversely he held the line on the GOP excessive tax cut proposals) so the combination of the two produced a unusual amount of fiscal restraint. This fiscal restraint produced dropping intrest rates. As for inflation, the fact Japan for most of the 90s was mired in various recession caused inflation, especially on fuel, to be far lower than it otherwise would have been, and Japans deflation led the Japanese to buy record amounts of US tresuries, further taking pressue off intrest rates.

   The 90s economically in part was real, but also was in part illusion, the economic stats from the 90s, especially when one measures productivity gains(and these stats are still quite suspect because the Clinton era methods of taking them are still in place). History will show Clinton not as a horrible president, but not as a great one either, he will be viewed as somthing equivlent to William Mckinley.  On the other hand, Clintons insane strong dollar policy under Robert Rubins advice, the trade gap that exploded and the illegal immigration problems that got far worse are problems that will impact the US for decades to come.
Logged
M
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,491


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2003, 06:47:22 PM »

Peace and prosperity can be achieved many ways. They can be achieved if the Nazis complete world conquest. Isolationism is not a worthy national goal.

I would rank Clinton the better part of middle of the road except for lying under oath, which brings him down to lower part of middle of the road. What great thing did he accomplish for the expansion of the ideal that "all men are created equal"? Nothing.

George W. Bush should not be ranked yet. So far, however, he has shown a moral clarity not seen since Wilson, but unlike Wilson and like Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and Reagan especially, he has had the guts to get it done against strong opposition. This is evidenced by his incredible vision of spreaqding democracy and self-determination to the entire Near East.

I put FDR at 3. He did the most ever to expand democracy (our system was truly in danger of collapse during the depression, but he saved it. Then he not just won WW2, but turned the Axis into thriving democracies.) Abe Lincoln is higher, his moral clarity and determination not to allow the Union's split and later to eradicate the evil of slavery make him one of the greatest men in history. Washington, though, founded more traditions about running the country than it is possible to count. Unlike any other president ever, there was broad support for him to be made King or Dictator. He turned all these offers down, and governed with the principles of Locke and Montesqieu. He truly was First In War, First in Peace, and First in the Hearts of his Countrymen.

 
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,806


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2003, 08:57:43 PM »
« Edited: December 15, 2003, 09:08:41 PM by Beet »

the disaster of Carter (economic maliase and all

I think Carter is one of the most underrated Presidents in history. Firstly, people tend to equate the problems of the Carter years with Carter himself, but in fact the problems of that era, notably stagflation, had begun far before the Carter presidency. In fact, it was Jimmy Carter's appointment of Paul Volcker to head of the Federal Reserve board that began to turn the country's economy around. Volcker, who says that he was "sort of a Democrat" was also a known monetary tightener. He curbed growth of the money supply and immediately began to raise interest rates dramatically in October 1979. This sent the economy into a recession that hurt Carter in the election but brought inflation down from its peak- and it would continue to fall ever since. The "Carter recession" of 1980 and the much deeper "Reagan recession" of 1982 were all engineered by Paul Volcker. At the time, he was widely disliked and accused of creating high unemployment, but inflation was finally defeated. Another thing that hurt Carter (and Volcker) but which was beyond his control was oil price hikes set off as the result of the Iranian revolution. These hikes were even bigger than the oil price hikes under the OPEC oil embargo. A glance at a long-term chart shows that Carter and Volcker were trying to steer an industrial economy at a time when energy prices were at pre-industrial levels-- the highest since about 1870.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1869.gif
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/crudeoilprice7281.gif

One interesting thing pointed out by the chart is that Carter announced oil price decontrol. The website says: "The US imposed price controls on domestically produced oil in an attempt to lessen the impact of the 1973-74 price increase.  The obvious result of the price controls was that U.S. consumers of crude oil paid 48 percent more for imports than domestic production. Of course U.S producers received less.
Did the policy achieve its goal? In the short term the recession induced by the 1973-1974 crude oil price rise was less.  However, it had other effects as well.  In the absence of price controls U.S. exploration and production would certainly have been significantly greater. The higher prices faced by consumers would have resulted in lower rates of consumption: automobiles would have had higher mileage sooner, homes and commercial buildings would have been better insulated and improvements in industrial energy efficiency  would have been greater than they were during this period. As a consequence, the United States would have been less dependent on imports in 1979-1980 and the price increase in response to Iranian and Iraqi supply interruptions would have been significantly less. "
Thus, price decontrols, plus monetary policy reversal, brought short-term pain that cost Carter the election, but at the long-term benefit to America.

Iranian revolution. Carter came into office much as a result of the corruption of the previous administrations. Consequently, he was the only President to pressure all of America's authoritarian allies to improve their human rights records, even if it made things more difficult for him (or, say, the Shah of Iran). But Carter's concern for human rights in dictatorial regimes didn't  lead to the revolt of Iranian religious leaders-- that came after somebody assasinated a relative of the Ayatollah in Iraq in 1977, and after the Shah's regime published an article mocking the Ayatollah in January 1978. At the time the revolution was actually a broad-based democratic revolution with a wide political spectrum participating. Only as 1979 and the early 1980s wore on did the Ayatollah increasingly eliminate all of his political opponents.

Peaks and troughs. The second oil shock sent prices to record (industrial) highs, and they peaked in January 1981, the same month Ronald Reagan took office. Thus while Reagan had falling oil prices throughout his presidency (they finally fell through the bottom in 1985), Carter dealt with rising oil prices throughout his.

Here are the prices under Reagan. Note that only the change in oil prices leads to inflationary/deflationary pressures; their absolute level does not lead to price presures over the long term.
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/crudeoilprice8198.gif

Hostage situation. Throughout the hostage year, television channels kept reporting the number of days the hostages had been in Iran. I read that Walter Cronkite began every broadcast with something like "today is the 339th day..." However this misses the point that the most important thing is that the hostages are not killed and eventually freed. Carter must be credited with taking very seriously the lives of the hostages in the U.S. embassy in Iran, and he was ultimately successful. He managed to negotiate for the release of all the hostages without a single dead. That is quite a remarkable feat considering they were held by a fanatical religious regime in a city in central Asia some 800 miles from the coast. Compare this to Putin's sledgehammer approach in central Moscow last year-- it may have benefitted him politically but it cost 115 innocent lives. Finally, Carter takes the heat for the failure of a military rescue mission, but it isn't the President's job to micromanage the mechanical viability of every helicopter. In this case Carter got unlucky.

Overall, Carter was probably one of the unluckiest Presidents in the 20th century, which is unfortunate because he was also one of the most honest and concerned about human rights.
Logged
M
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,491


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2003, 09:11:04 PM »

This argument is... astonishing. Wow. I am speechless.

Until I remember there are those who apologize for Hitler as well. A lot of them. They rule several Middle Eastern nations.

On second thought, Beet isn't so out of touch with reality.
Logged
dazzleman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,777
Political Matrix
E: 1.88, S: 1.59

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2003, 09:37:10 PM »

It's true that Truman mishandled the internal security issue.  I also don't approve of his hostility toward business, and propensity toward price controls and high taxes.

But he did revolutionalize US foreign policy into taking the first steps to confront communism.  He developed the Marshall Plan and NATO.

I don't think anybody could have prevented the fall of China to the communists without a massive military intervention that would never have received the sustained support of the American public.  The nationalist government was completely ineffectual and corrupt, and Truman was not to blame for that.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.069 seconds with 11 queries.