Amherst scores triumph over "male white privilege", bans fraternities

[bedstuy]

I strongly believe in stopping sexual assault and rape, as would any morally functioning person. What I do not believe in is this idea of an "all-pervasive" rape culture that apparently all-so-conveniently happens to mesh nicely with the idea of white cismale privilege or whatnot. I don't entirely know what constitutes "rape culture".

When students at Yale shout "No means yes! Yes means anal!" I suppose that can count as "rape culture" though I'd like to think that's not pervasive; ie Cathcon or everyone I know in a frat doesn't actually believe in that sort of horrendousness. Where I get confused is when I'm told that school uniforms somehow are part of this "rape culture", as I was when visiting my friends at a New England liberal arts college (not one particularly known for its kooky-ness, at that), or, as I heard on a rare occasion I found myself on the west side of Broadway, that the sign-in policy limiting the amount of visits a given person could make in a month there also constituted "rape culture". (Maybe it was actually the patriarchy)

All I am saying is that this "rape culture" seems to have become some ill-defined, loaded term that at least amongst certain circles, especially here, seems to be more important a thing to protest about than combat the occurrence of sexual assault itself. In the discourse here at least it threatens to make any sort of discussion of how to fight sexual assault impossible without adopting some sort of combative, anti-authority, social-justice-warrior tone lest one be accused of enabling this all pervasive "rape culture". It's a complete derailment of the actual issue.

I think what's annoying about the whole campus leftist idea of "white privilege" and "rape culture" is that it's cheap victimization and scapegoating.  It casts one large group of people as victims and one group as perpetrators.  What's a white kid supposed to do about white privilege?  They can't not be white.  What's a male supposed to do about rape culture?  Not raping would be a good first step, but one person can't change a culture.  They're both at their core slogans that shut down any argument against the campus leftist point of view.  It's like denouncing someone for being bourgeois in Maoist China. 

On the other hand, fraternities are terrible.  The whole culture they spawn is toxic.  What happens is that guys egg each other on and the group mentality creates a sense that it's normal to act like a jackass. 

[MaxQue]

Perhaps the issue is the majors and minors system. In other countries, students are studying in only one subject. The student organisation (which has elected offices who are managing things) is often the focal point of the student life, instead of frats.

[Simfan34]

Interesting* anecdote: I was the treasurer of my school's art appreciation club (we had a kind of dumb name so I won't post that here because it's the sort of embarassingly twee late 00s name that we thought was cool at the time but in retrospect is way too try hard), and the club, completely independently, put on a gallery show, with live music, food and drinks, and sold $10,000 worth of tickets to the show, earning about $2,000 in profit. So it's definitely possible to learn all this random stuff without a fraternity (which were, by the way, banned (don't remember if it was officially or unofficially though) at my good Catholic school, as they besmirched our Jesuit character). So I guess the moral of the story is, BRTD is right, as per usual.

*not really

Our organisation here is on track to earn $22,000 of profit via a fundraiser, so there. The point is that Greek organisations certainly aren't a bunch of rapists doing nothing but drinking. Which, in aggregate, is what this thread seems to suggest.

[Indy Texas]

Excellent. Any blow against bro-dom is worthwhile.

Don't take a metaphorical piss on those that might actually enjoy their lives. I would, however, be interesting to hear your actual opposition to people being productive, taking leadership roles, having to learn codes of conduct, running an organization, and all the other things that come with being part of such an organization.

In any case, this is a great miscarriage of justice, the likes of which has not been seen since--probably--Roe v. Wade. They can all go to Hell.

All of which can and are done by people who have nothing to do with Greek Life.

In the civilian life, the type of situations that fraternities deal with are unlikely to be comparable to some rando organization like the Creative Arts Guild.

Are you seriously comparing being in a fraternity to being in the frickin' military?

No, that's just the point. Obviously I'm not going to allow my remarks to be taken in comparison to all of human life. As a law enforcement officer, public official, or member of the military, it's quite clear that you're dealing with situations on a different level than the average voter might be. Thus, it would be foolish to include such things in the sample. However, when in fraternities that actually operate, function, and--on the other hand--"rage", you are put in situations that may require more finesse, diplomacy, and discipline than one might pick up working in other student organizations.

Look, I get that you're very proud of your letters and all that. I personally do not think banning fraternities wholesale is going to solve the issues Amherst is seeking to address.

But you have to admit that you participate in and perpetuate an organization that is by its very nature exclusionary and makes other people feel unwelcome and in some situations taken advantage of.

I briefly dated a girl in college whose sorority more or less chewed her up and spit her out in pieces. It was awful. She developed an eating disorder. Her grades plummeted. Arbitrary aspects of her life were controlled in ridiculous ways. She ended up quitting, spent months in counseling and nearly transferred schools. Meanwhile, one of my roommates almost more or less had a nervous breakdown during pledging.

Call me crazy for not wanting to get involved in something like that. As someone who had serious social anxiety and self-esteem issues for much of college, the whole thing came across as an incredibly hostile and threatening environment.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The college Republicans here (of whom I am the treasurer) have talked about reaching out to the Greek organisations for possible growth and new members. I believe it may be a very fruitful initiative, as do the people involved on our board (two of them). If nothing else this shows we have a common enemy, delusion.

Ha, so more proof frats are inherently right wing.

[Lief 🗽]

What's a white kid supposed to do about white privilege?  They can't not be white.  

Recognize that being white carries with it certain advantages in a historically racist society and be aware of those advantages when interacting with people in marginalized groups and listening to their opinions and viewpoints. Recognize that everyone, white or black, has certain racist assumptions ingrained in them simply by living and growing up in our society and do your best to not be racist in interactions with others.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Not make jokes like "No means yes, yes means anal." Not turn the prison rape epidemic into a punchline. Understand what consent is and make sure your partners are giving and able to give full consent before having sexual relations.

People hear terms like privilege and rape culture and think those terms are meant to punish them or force them to apologize for doing something wrong (like that Princeton freshman kid proudly refuses to). They're not, and social justice people who use the terms that way are wrong to do so. The point is to make people think about their, often subconscious, assumptions.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also keep in mind that frats literally kill people. Seriously. Their hazing rituals have actually resulted in deaths.

[traininthedistance]

Our organisation here is on track to earn $22,000 of profit via a fundraiser, so there. The point is that Greek organisations certainly aren't a bunch of rapists doing nothing but drinking. Which, in aggregate, is what this thread seems to suggest.

Oh, of course.  Nobody actually thinks that.  Everyone knows they also engage in old-boy's-club networking and summoning the ghost of Bob Marley.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is basically what I think of frat members as like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW6J4ds8Fm0

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also frat boys are the type of people who think Dane Cook and Daniel Tosh are funny. And the latter is probably the biggest promoter of rape culture in America.

[IceSpear]

Useless symbolic decision.

^^^

[bedstuy]

What's a white kid supposed to do about white privilege?  They can't not be white.  

Recognize that being white carries with it certain advantages in a historically racist society and be aware of those advantages when interacting with people in marginalized groups and listening to their opinions and viewpoints. Recognize that everyone, white or black, has certain racist assumptions ingrained in them simply by living and growing up in our society and do your best to not be racist in interactions with others.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Not make jokes like "No means yes, yes means anal." Not turn the prison rape epidemic into a punchline. Understand what consent is and make sure your partners are giving and able to give full consent before having sexual relations.

People hear terms like privilege and rape culture and think those terms are meant to punish them or force them to apologize for doing something wrong (like this Tal kid proudly refuses to). They're not, and social justice people who use the terms that way are wrong to do so. The point is to make people think about their, often subconscious, assumptions.

Yeah, that's all true and probably needed for a large segment of the population.  Sometimes you forget how awful people can be. 

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else.  Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

[Simfan34]

Yeah, that's all true and probably needed for a large segment of the population.  Sometimes you forget how awful people can be. 

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else. Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

This. These people act like the end goal should be a society where everyone is constantly aware of their racial or ethnic or gender privilege and is perpetually trying to avoid making "microaggressions" or whatnot, which is frankly terrifying. My end goal is a society where race simply does not matter. I mean I'm for gender equality but I'd quite like to completely see the idea of "race" as it is currently understood utterly removed from human society. This seems quite unlike what these people appear to be advocating for.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

[Simfan34]

BRTD, there is already enough awfulness in this thread without your concerted efforts to be particularly awful. Please stop.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

I'm ambivalent towards frats, on the whole. The culture at Amherst College is, however, f[inks]ing terrible, and that's not going to change.

[IceSpear]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

That doesn't seem like a sound justification for banning something.

[MurrayBannerman]

The college Republicans here (of whom I am the treasurer) have talked about reaching out to the Greek organisations for possible growth and new members. I believe it may be a very fruitful initiative, as do the people involved on our board (two of them). If nothing else this shows we have a common enemy, delusion.

Ha, so more proof frats are inherently right wing.

Fraternities are deeply ingrained in southern culture. So, yea, they are.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

That doesn't seem like a sound justification for banning something.

How about the facts that frats promote rape culture and literally kill people with their hazing?

[bedstuy]

Yeah, that's all true and probably needed for a large segment of the population.  Sometimes you forget how awful people can be. 

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else. Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

This. These people act like the end goal should be a society where everyone is constantly aware of their racial or ethnic or gender privilege and is perpetually trying to avoid making "microaggressions" or whatnot, which is frankly terrifying. My end goal is a society where race simply does not matter. I mean I'm for gender equality but I'd quite like to completely see the idea of "race" as it is currently understood utterly removed from human society. This seems quite unlike what these people appear to be advocating for.

Yeah, I think gender and sexual orientation are sort of in a different category, I shouldn't have included them in that sentence.  The problem as I see it as is that people get so used to playing the victim that they forget what they were fighting for in the first place.

[MurrayBannerman]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

That doesn't seem like a sound justification for banning something.

How about the facts that frats promote rape culture and literally kill people with their hazing?

All frats do this. Yes. 100% murder rate and they're all rapists.

You know what you do when these things happen. Ban the frat and expel the students. Not tear the whole damn Greek system down. That's like saying we should rip up the Constitution because someone got shot and that means the 2nd amendment is super bad.

[Simfan34]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

That doesn't seem like a sound justification for banning something.

How about the facts that frats promote rape culture and literally kill people with their hazing?

People die moshing so let's ban that too, right?

[Lief 🗽]

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else.  Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

I mean, it's easy for us as white men to say that race shouldn't constantly be injected into every day life. But for a black kid who is harassed by the police for something a white kid would not be, or who is rejected from a job or suffers other less visible, but still constant, forms of bias, or for a woman who can't walk down the street in a skirt because it's a nice day without being catcalled or can't have her tubes tied at the doctor when she's in twenties, even though there's no problem with her boyfriend doing the same, these things are constantly injected into their lives, against their will. We can't just ignore them and hope they go away. That's not how fighting inequality works.

Hopefully one day everyone is completely socially, politically and economically equal, regardless of skin color or gender or sexuality. But until that point, it's important to recognize that people are treated very differently based on these immutable characteristics, and simply ignoring this fact, which is admittedly very very uncomfortable, is not going to make it go away. We should instead recognize the ways that we don't treat marginalized the groups the same as everyone else, and work to correct those behaviors, both personally and in society at large.

[IceSpear]

This is exactly the sort of cosmetic, look-ma-we're-not-useless change that I'd expect Amherst College to make to its culture.

No, it's f[inks]ing awesome because frats are f[inks]ing terrible.

That doesn't seem like a sound justification for banning something.

How about the facts that frats promote rape culture and literally kill people with their hazing?

How many people have died from frat hazing?