Terry Shaivo---for the record

[RJ]

What are the specifics surrounding the Terry Shaivo case? This may have already been answered, so if someone could point me in the right direction, I'd be happy to take it from there.

In particular, what is her exact state? Is she concsious? Can she speak? What's this controversy surrounding her husband possibly having something to do with her state? Is it true he has been offered a hunk of cash from right to life groups to drop the case? What about her parents? Do they know of some intent she has to survive or does her husband have some record of her intent? Any other particulars would also be appreciated. Hopefully, nothing too biased or opinionated.

 Also, I think it bears asking: I understand Bush's current approval ratings are down close the the lowest of his presidency, and this case has something to do with it. Are the numbers rigged, you think, by the source? I believe it was a gallup poll(?) that listed that. I heard it on the local news. I'm surprised if that's the case since talk of Iraq has died down and he seems to be concentrating more recently on his domestic policy, unless that's what the problem is. Feel free to tell me what you think on this question. I realize this is the last thing on anyone's mind concerning the case, but this is a political forum and Dubya and others have been accused of getting involved for political gain. As much as I hate George, I can't say I'm convinced of that, although there are some who I think are.

I'd like to apologize if anyone has a problem with me bringing this up particularly on Easter Sunday, but I keep forgetting to ask and would like to get a little more insight before the inevitable.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

She hasn't been concious or able to feel pain for 15 years, and that's not going to change.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

[J. J.]

The best site I've found is this one:

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Jay Wolfson was the guardian appointed under "Terri's Law."  He is about as neutral as you can get.

I feel that the Federal intervention was wrong and drove down Bush's numbers. 

[George W. Bush]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

Was he on life Support?

[The Duke]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Busted.

She doesn't feel the pain, even if she does respond.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=753

[TheWildCard]

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Busted.

She doesn't feel the pain, even if she does respond.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=753

For every neurologist who says that you can find one that says otherwise.

http://www.lifenews.com/bio833.html

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

For every neurologist who says that you can find one that says otherwise.

http://www.lifenews.com/bio833.html

If you check Dr. Fins webpage at the place he he works,  you’ll find that he is not a neurologist.  His practice is internal medicine and he also is a professor of medical ethics.  At least the other neurologist cited, Dr. Cheshire, is actually a neurologist, but his specialization is the autonomic nervous system in general and trigeminal neuralgia specifically.  If the question is whether Terri’s brain stem is functioning, he’s well qualified, but that’s not the issue; if it were we’d be arguing over whether Terri is in a coma, not whether she is in PVS.  Given that he hasn’t had a chance to examine her (and given that his speciality is not relevant to whether Terri is in PVS, I can understand that) I wouldn’t give his opinion credibility in the face of a conflicting opinion from doctors who both specialize in this area and have had a chance to examine her.
The third doctor, Dr. Stevens is board cerified only in familiy medicine, and since he seems to spend more time with the media than patients, I certainly wouldn’t want him to be my doctor except in an emergency.

With doctors like these, it is no wonder that Terri’s parents have failed in their crusade.

[J. J.]

There has been one neurologist, that I know of that has examined Mrs. Schivo and reached the conclusion that she is aware of her environment.  He was hired by the Schindlers.

Here is something else from his report:

ENT:  The patient can clearly swallow, and is able to swallow approximately 2 liters of water per day (the daily amount of saliva generated).  Water is one of the most difficult things for people to swallow.  It is unlikely that she currently needs the feeding tube.

http://libertytothecaptives.net/hammesfahr_dr._report.html

Now, according to him, the feeding tube does not need to be attached.

In all fairness, in looking at his overall report, many of his conclusions are quite questionable and even conflict with the Shindler's claims.

[J. J.]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Quite wrong on your part.   As pointed out, responding to pain stimuli is usually reflexive and generally is not even involving brain activities.  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0033685.html

We certainly cannot use responce to pain as an argument that this response to pain is indicitive of brain activity.

[George W. Bush]

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Busted.

She doesn't feel the pain, even if she does respond.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=753

If she dident feel pain they would not give her pain killers.

[The Duke]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Quite wrong on your part.   As pointed out, responding to pain stimuli is usually reflexive and generally is not even involving brain activities.  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0033685.html

We certainly cannot use responce to pain as an argument that this response to pain is indicitive of brain activity.

Your position is so obviously wrong it not even funny.  Even Michael Schiavo's hospice caregivers admit she can feel pain, or she'd not be on morphine.

[J. J.]

The latest hypocrite is Tom Delay. He choose to have his father die when he was in a coma.

Wrong.

She responds to pain stimuli, and this is why she has been on morphine during the starvation process.

Quite wrong on your part.   As pointed out, responding to pain stimuli is usually reflexive and generally is not even involving brain activities.  http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0033685.html

We certainly cannot use responce to pain as an argument that this response to pain is indicitive of brain activity.

Your position is so obviously wrong it not even funny.  Even Michael Schiavo's hospice caregivers admit she can feel pain, or she'd not be on morphine.

Would you care to cite the source that says she is getting morphine. 

The only source I've found has been a statement from the Schindler's lawyer.
Over the last two days, this same group has said that Mrs. Shiavo had "hours" to life, two days ago and claimed that "AAAAHHHHH WAAAA" means, "I want to live."  They are not a trustworthy source, and this has been demonstrated by these two claims.

I will add that morphine has other medical uses than pain relief:

http://www.widesmiles.org/cleftlinks/WS-585.html

* symptomatic relief of moderately severe to severe pain;
        * relief of certain types of difficult or labored breathing;
        * suppression of severe cough (rarely);
        * suppression of severe diarrhea (e.g., that produced by cholera).

You'll note that helps out with labored breathing.  Common, all that you are doing at this point is showing that your knowledge of medicine is even worse than your knowledge law. 

Why should we believe a guy who doesn't understand the difference between a life insurance policy and the settlement from a lawsuit.

[The Duke]

Imprecision in language is different than lack of understanding.

Are you suggesting that the patient has cholera?

[J. J.]

Imprecision in language is different than lack of understanding.

Are you suggesting that the patient has cholera?

No, I'm suggesting that the patient might have "difficult and labored breathing." 

I'm also suggesting that neither you nor the Schindler's have given accurate information recently, and this might yet be another example, since no link has been forthcomming.

I did Google it, as any reader may do; I also ran it through MSNBC, where I did the Schindler's attorney's comment.  Again, a few bloggers said she did, though many more suggested it would be more merciful to give her an overdose of morphine.  Were is the evidence, from an unbiased source that she is rregeiving morphine and that it is as a pain killer.

Many drugs, including morphine, do have multiple uses.

[J. J.]

Here is an article relating to the possible use of morphine quoting,  "Vicente H. Gracias, medical director of surgical critical care at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania."

Gracias said it was a simple surgical procedure to remove a feeding tube, which is about two feet long and the diameter of a little finger with a small inflatable balloon at the end to keep it in place in the stomach.

As the days pass, he said, Schiavo's body will begin shutting down. Her kidneys will decline and her immune system will weaken, leaving her susceptible to life-threatening disease and infection, and gradually her diaphragm and the muscles around her rib cage will stop functioning.

She could have cramping, but that can be eased with "comfort measures," such as a morphine drip, Gracias said. "That in itself can lead to... a much less difficult end of life."

The U.S. Supreme Court and the American Medical Association, along with end-of-life experts, consider feeding tubes medical treatment like surgery or dialysis. Thus, they say, removing them does not legally or ethically constitute starvation.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/health/11175961.htm



Dr. Gracias notes that the morphine, if even used, would be used to treat "cramping" not ease non-existent pain.

You seem to be following the "Schindler legal method," which is throw out a bunch on nonsence and then lose.  It's just as well for you as it is for them.

[The Duke]

You just posted that Terri may be recieving the morphine to relieve pain from cramps, but that no such pain could exist.

[RJ]

Geez, I didn't ask for all these arguements involving Tom Delay, pain killers, neurologists, and so on. This is what I asked:

In particular, what is her exact state? Is she concsious? Can she speak? What's this controversy surrounding her husband possibly having something to do with her state? Is it true he has been offered a hunk of cash from right to life groups to drop the case? What about her parents? Do they know of some intent she has to survive or does her husband have some record of her intent? Any other particulars would also be appreciated. Hopefully, nothing too biased or opinionated.

 Also, I think it bears asking: I understand Bush's current approval ratings are down close the the lowest of his presidency, and this case has something to do with it. Are the numbers rigged, you think, by the source? I believe it was a gallup poll(?) that listed that. I heard it on the local news. I'm surprised if that's the case since talk of Iraq has died down and he seems to be concentrating more recently on his domestic policy, unless that's what the problem is. Feel free to tell me what you think on this question. I realize this is the last thing on anyone's mind concerning the case, but this is a political forum and Dubya and others have been accused of getting involved for political gain. As much as I hate George, I can't say I'm convinced of that, although there are some who I think are.

Looks like whether or mot she's actually concious has been answered. Someone also posted a site regarding some specifics, but it was difficult to read and seemed to be just 1 person's opinion. Anyone else?

[The Duke]

Her state is disputed.
She may be conscious, but only marginally at most.
She cannot speak.
Some people say he beat her.
He's been offered a lot of money to walk away.
There is no claim that she said she wanted to live.
There is no substantiation of her intent to die.

[J. J.]

Her state is disputed.
She may be conscious, but only marginally at most.
She cannot speak.
Some people say he beat her.
He's been offered a lot of money to walk away.
There is no claim that she said she wanted to live.
There is no substantiation of her intent to die.

There is no question to her competence.  She is incompetent.  She failed multiple "swallow tests" in the early 1990's.  Four years worth of therapy were found to be complete failures.  An exerimental procedure also failed.

Some people who who have know knowledge of her case think she was abused.  However, she was undergoing medical treatment to conceive prior to her heart attack (a generic term), and there was no evidence of it.  None of here wounds were consistent with "abuse."  Further, her parent's claim that he "abused" her was dismissed "with prejudice, in 1994.  They never claimed, until a few days ago, that she abused him before the heart attack.

There is bassically no money left in her trust fund, which Mr. Schiavo does not control.  He was offered $1,000,000 to relinquish his guardianship and immediately declined it.  He offered, in 1998, to renounce any inheritence from the estate.

Three people, though all connected to Mr. Shaivo, heard her state that she didn't wand to be kept alive, before the heart attack.

While she was the hospital in the early 1990's her parents, encouraged Mr. Shiavo to date other women.

[The Duke]

I didn't say she was competent, I said there was dispute as to whether she was conscious.

This is a pattern with you, someone says something and you react with outrage and demand that they retract a completely different statement.  So and so is incompetent.  They are not incontinent!  All in the hopes that since the two words sound alike, no one will notice.

Michael Schiavo does control the trust fund, and used some of it to pay off his lawyer's fees.

A lot of people try to have a child when their marriage is on the rocks, vainly hoping a baby will fix everything.  This is not to say that their marriage was or wasn't in bad shape, but it does show that an attempt to concieve doesn't even come close to demonstrating a happy marriage.

[J. J.]

I didn't say she was competent, I said there was dispute as to whether she was conscious.

This is a pattern with you, someone says something and you react with outrage and demand that they retract a completely different statement.  So and so is incompetent.  They are not incontinent!  All in the hopes that since the two words sound alike, no one will notice.

Michael Schiavo does control the trust fund, and used some of it to pay off his lawyer's fees.

A lot of people try to have a child when their marriage is on the rocks, vainly hoping a baby will fix everything.  This is not to say that their marriage was or wasn't in bad shape, but it does show that an attempt to concieve doesn't even come close to demonstrating a happy marriage.

Ford, you have just demonstrated how ignorant you really are, ignorant of the law. 

Someone being an "incompetent" or of being "incompetent"  refers to their lack of legal ability make decisions, usually regarding their personal life and based on their mental condition.  That is why both sides are fighting over who should be guardian.  Incompent persons may be fully conscious, may be able to walk around, go to church, carry out conversations, eat by themselves, and yes, they may control their bowels and bladder may function.  They however do not have the legal ability to make decisions, including medical and financial decisions; this authority is given to a guardian.  Guardianship is granted by a court, upon petition. 

In the Schiavo case, Mr. Schiavo was granted guardianship, first in 1990, without any objections by the Schindlers.  The Schindlers have sued, always unsuccessfully, to be named as guardians.  They have never said, "Terri can make her own decisions."

A person might be bedridden, be incontinent (unable to control their excretory functions), be unable to move body parts, be unable to articulate, and still be "competent."  Physical condition only incidently relates to competency; someone otherwise healthy might have a mental condition that renders them incompetent.

I actually know the "walking incompentent" and well as the "bedridden competent."

No Mr. Shiavo does not have direct control of the funds; their use is limited as in indicated in the court documents:

Michael Schiavo, on Theresa's and his own behalf, initiated a medical malpractice lawsuit against the obstetrician who had been overseeing Theresa's fertility therapy. In 1993, the malpractice action concluded in Theresa and Michael's favor, resulting in a two element award: More than $750,000 in economic damages for Theresa, and a loss of consortium award (non economic damages) of $300,000 to Michael. The court established a trust fund for Theresa's financial award, with SouthTrust Bank as the Guardian and an independent trustee. This fund was meticulously managed and accounted for and Michael Schiavo had no control over its use. There is no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa's estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained.

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

As guardian, he is limited on what he can spend it on, but one of things is legal action on behalf of the incompetent person.  That is what he is doing.  He can't take the money and go to Mazitlan (unless it would be related to Mrs. Schiavo).


Most couples will stop trying to have a baby if they are going to break up.  They were actively engaged in trying to conceive.  The had not stopped medical treatment for that at the time of the heart attack.  It was the basis of the malpractice suit that they were the patients of the doctor and were receiving continuing treatment.

[The Duke]

When did I say she was competent?  When did I, for that matter, say she wasn't?  When did I address whther she was or wasn't competent in any way?

I said, and I will say again, there is dispute as to whether she is conscious (And there is).  Not competent, but conscious.  I never addressed the issue of competence.  So to call me ignorant, when you didn't even properly read what I said, is a bit hyperbolic, really.

My mentioning of incontinence was a mockery of how you have repeatedly attacked me not by attacking my actual position, but by attacking a position that sounds like mine but is actually different from mine in a fundamental way.  For example, if I say someone is incompetent and you disagree, you say they are not incontinent (Because incontinent and incompetent sound alike, and casual readers might not pick up on it) and then lay out a long post explaining why the Wolfson Report says so and so actually has perfect control over their bodily functions.  Of course, since I never said that this fictional character was incontinent to begin with, you repeatedly boldface a confrontational question demanding that I explain why I had said something I'd never really said to begin with.

Your whole post proves my point.  Your main thrust was that I had said Terri was ceompetent, when I hadn't.  I hadn't actually said she was or wasn't anything.  I said there was dispute over whether she was conscious.

Being conscious and being competent are two different things.  I addressed the former, but not the latter.  I took a position on neither.

[J. J.]

When did I say she was competent?  When did I, for that matter, say she wasn't?  When did I address whther she was or wasn't competent in any way?

Ford, the Schindlers, who by claiming that she expressed the opinion that she offered an opinion about the feeding tube.  She legally, even by the standards they are claiming, cannot validly offer an opinion (and youdid, correctly for once, point that she couldn't talk).  They are claiming that she's incapable of making a valid opinion, but we should treat it as valid.  That is the height of hypocracy of their part.

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It does illustrate your ignorance not to realize that claim, from a legal position, is totally contradictory.  The Schindlers are saying, in effect, "We should make the decisions for her for because she can't, but she made this decision."

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Your opinions have been so incorrect, I can usually show how wrong they are.

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No, I was saying that she was incompetent, a point agreed on by both parties, to show that it was an important factor in the case.  Whatever her state of consciousness, or lack thereof, is not really important.  Both sides argree that whatever the state, she does not have enough competency to make a decision.

As I've said, exactly what her medical condition is or isn't is not really the issue; both sides agree that her mental condition is dimished.  The question is, would she want to have the feeding tube remove?  Yes or no?

There is evidence for the yes position; there is no evidence for the no position.