How blessed is the one who does not seek help from the proud or from liars!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Of the readings in the Revised Common Lectionary for 18 January 2014 (Saturday before the Second Sunday after Epiphany), I chose to reflect on Psalm 40:1-11.

How blessed is the one who … does not seek help from the proud or from liars! Psalm 40:4

What's that you say?  I already reflected on this reading two days ago?  Well you're right, but today's reflection is on a different part of the reading.

First off, a bot about the verse.  The whole of verse 4 is: "How blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD and does not seek help from the proud or from liars!" (NET Bible) with the omission of trusting the LORD mainly to keep the subject line from being too long, but also because this reflection will deal with the part I could fit in the subject line.

Incidentally, this was originally going to be a bit more metaphorical than it is, but that's because I first looked at this verse in the NIV. "Blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods."  Yet I found the phrasing awkward so I checked parallel versions and found that the NIV was only major version proud enough to designate a specific form of lie.  Yet in doing so, they missed a subtle truth that pride and lying are inextricably wound together.

For what is a lie but an attempt by the prideful to change truth into something more pleasing to them by the force of words alone.  Now in some cases, such as politics, it is possible that a lie told often enough will become the truth.  No doubt that is why few, if any, politicians are humble. If they are humble, we call them statesmen and hold them in higher regard than mere politicians, or rather we do that if in our own pride we like what they say.

Pride must ever resort to lies. For if in the very act of holding ourselves in higher regard than is our due, we must obscure or change the truth to fit our conception of how it should be.

[afleitch]

For what is a lie but an attempt by the prideful to change truth into something more pleasing to them by the force of words alone.
[/quote

Lies are never so simplistic. To the person who struggles every day with low self esteem and makes the effort to dress well and face the world and asks you 'how do I look?' What do you say? You place your own opinion aside because that person's well being, is greater than a 'truth' or an 'honesty' even if stating the truth refreshes you.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

For what is a lie but an attempt by the prideful to change truth into something more pleasing to them by the force of words alone.

Lies are never so simplistic. To the person who struggles every day with low self esteem and makes the effort to dress well and face the world and asks you 'how do I look?' What do you say? You place your own opinion aside because that person's well being, is greater than a 'truth' or an 'honesty' even if stating the truth refreshes you.

I considered whether to mention the white lie.  It is acceptable only as a temporary measure because one cannot think of at the moment how best to state the truth.  Yet if one leaves the white lie as the final word on a subject, then it is one's own pride that causes that.  For your specific example, casting aside one's pride would involve providing help to the person with self-esteem issues on looking their best so that in the future it is not merely with false words one says another looks marvelous.  Rather than simply relying upon the "force of words alone" engaging in concrete action to transform the truth into what is desired.

[afleitch]

For what is a lie but an attempt by the prideful to change truth into something more pleasing to them by the force of words alone.

Lies are never so simplistic. To the person who struggles every day with low self esteem and makes the effort to dress well and face the world and asks you 'how do I look?' What do you say? You place your own opinion aside because that person's well being, is greater than a 'truth' or an 'honesty' even if stating the truth refreshes you.

I considered whether to mention the white lie.  It is acceptable only as a temporary measure because one cannot think of at the moment how best to state the truth.  Yet if one leaves the white lie as the final word on a subject, then it is one's own pride that causes that.

At what point does the person who told a white lie to ensure that he wouldn't be stabbed for his wallet, best state the truth?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

For what is a lie but an attempt by the prideful to change truth into something more pleasing to them by the force of words alone.

Lies are never so simplistic. To the person who struggles every day with low self esteem and makes the effort to dress well and face the world and asks you 'how do I look?' What do you say? You place your own opinion aside because that person's well being, is greater than a 'truth' or an 'honesty' even if stating the truth refreshes you.

I considered whether to mention the white lie.  It is acceptable only as a temporary measure because one cannot think of at the moment how best to state the truth.  Yet if one leaves the white lie as the final word on a subject, then it is one's own pride that causes that.

At what point does the person who told a white lie to ensure that he wouldn't be stabbed for his wallet, best state the truth?

In that circumstance, would it not be best to simply hand over the wallet (or at the cash therein) rather than lie about it?  Is not an attachment to physical things a form of pride?

[afleitch]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

If that's going to happen, what lie is going to avoid him getting stabbed?

[afleitch]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

If that's going to happen, what lie is going to avoid him getting stabbed?

From experience,  a few!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

If that's going to happen, what lie is going to avoid him getting stabbed?

From experience,  a few!

Sorry.  I just don't see it.  Not unless you were using "wallet" as a euphemism for something else a thug might want to take and "stabbed" as euphemism for what a thug might want to do with you..  And if you've put yourself in a situation like that several times, clearly you weren't learning how to avoid such experiences.

[afleitch]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

If that's going to happen, what lie is going to avoid him getting stabbed?

From experience,  a few!

Sorry.  I just don't see it.  Not unless you were using "wallet" as a euphemism for something else a thug might want to take and "stabbed" as euphemism for what a thug might want to do with you..  And if you've put yourself in a situation like that several times, clearly you weren't learning how to avoid such experiences.

What on earth are you talking about?  Threatened with a knife and lied about a wallet to avoid being injured. That lie helped. Do you get it now? What is it about that you can't understand. Yet you repeatedly talk about telling a lie in such a black and white manner it almost turns my stomach.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Like his body?  Tell the truth but get stabbed?

If that's going to happen, what lie is going to avoid him getting stabbed?

From experience,  a few!

Sorry.  I just don't see it.  Not unless you were using "wallet" as a euphemism for something else a thug might want to take and "stabbed" as euphemism for what a thug might want to do with you..  And if you've put yourself in a situation like that several times, clearly you weren't learning how to avoid such experiences.

What on earth are you talking about?  Threatened with a knife and lied about a wallet to avoid being injured. That lie helped. Do you get it now? What is it about that you can't understand. Yet you repeatedly talk about telling a lie in such a black and white manner it almost turns my stomach.

And I said in my first reply to your hypothetical robbery that the option of simply handing over the wallet existed.  If the thief was going shiv you regardless of whether you tossed him the wallet, then I can't see why he wouldn't shiv you regardless of whether you tell the truth or not. So the risk at question is not physical, but economic.  Indeed, what you seem to be advocating is being so attached to your possessions, that you are willing to put your life in greater jeopardy by lying and chancing that the thief doesn't believe you and deciding to attack you and check your corpse for the wallet you were lying about.  If you define yourself by your possessions to the extent that you are unable to give them up, then you are a prideful person.  (And these days, between all the methods available for being in a cashless society, if you are carrying so much cash on your person that handing over a wallet will cause economic hardship, you are a stupid person.)

[afleitch]

I see you still haven't grasped the experience I am describing. How much more obvious need it be.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If you're describing something other than a simple mugging attempt, then by all means make it more obvious.  I tried to obliquely suggest you were implying it was something other than money the attacker wanted and you shot down that suggestion quite vehemently.  I'll admit that my experience with crime is low, limited to having a rear taillight taken off my vehicle while it was parked overnight on one occasion, and my car taken for a joyride on another.

[afleitch]

I was the victim of an attempted mugging.  Knowing that I had a wallet that had nothing in it which he would have looked through and probably stabbed me in frustration, I lied and said I had left it in a pub and was going back for it so he shoved me and left. Of course I lied which apparently is a sign of being too proud rather than an occasionally useful trait.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm surprised he believed you, altho if you showed visible signs of pub crawling, he might have, tho said signs may have also been why he picked you as his target in the first place.  But be that as it may, I don't see where he wouldn't be at least as frustrated by you having no wallet as by you having an empty wallet.  So I still don't see where that lie benefited you in the least.

[afleitch]

I'm surprised he believed you, altho if you showed visible signs of pub crawling, he might have, tho said signs may have also been why he picked you as his target in the first place.  But be that as it may, I don't see where he wouldn't be at least as frustrated by you having no wallet as by you having an empty wallet.  So I still don't see where that lie benefited you in the least.

What. It stopped him from stabbing me! Are you just taking the piss now?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm surprised he believed you, altho if you showed visible signs of pub crawling, he might have, tho said signs may have also been why he picked you as his target in the first place.  But be that as it may, I don't see where he wouldn't be at least as frustrated by you having no wallet as by you having an empty wallet.  So I still don't see where that lie benefited you in the least.

What. It stopped him from stabbing me! Are you just taking the piss now?

No.  Because you haven't explained to me why a mugger would be more likely to stab you for having an empty wallet than for having no wallet.  It makes absolutely no logical sense, or for that matter even illogical sense.  It sounds to me like you're proud of having pulled a fast one on him, yet I just don't see how it made any positive difference in the situation.  Indeed, it appears you put yourself at greater risk by your lie than if you hadn't told it.  I'd think a mugger would be far likelier to stab a cheeky liar than to stab someone who had no money.  You're just lucky he believed your lie.

[afleitch]

Because he needed bills.  A couple of cards would be of no use to him. Whether he went after someone else I don't you know. You weren't there you arrogant bastard. I'm done being courteous. Remind me never to respond to one of the Pez dispensed theological regurgitations ever again.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You were done being courteous several posts ago.  I readily admit I wasn't there, but you still haven't provided one reason why the mugger should have been more frustrated with one way of getting no bills from you than another.  You just keep saying he would have been with no justification at all provided for your belief.  Maybe I'd have agreed with your justification if you had provided one, and maybe I wouldn't have.  I don't know, since I have no earthly idea why you are thinking the way you are about this.  But let me step back for a moment from this particular example, since the general point you raise is an interesting one which I got sidetracked from because I do not believe the example you gave did what you think it had done.

Is a lie which will prevent an aggressor from causing harm justified?  As you mentioned in your last post, there is always the possibility that a lie merely deflects the aggression onto another person, particularly if the aggression is generalized instead of being directed at a specific person.  While Room 101 is an all too human trait, especially if we are merely deflecting harm onto another instead of a loved one, that does not make it moral. If aggression is only displaced, the lie has not by itself served the greater good as the evil of the aggression will still occur. Yet the lie need not be the sole course of action one takes.

Might such a lie be justified if it is used to delay the aggressor and to provide time to obtain the means of dealing with the aggressor?  Possibly, but if such lies become commonplace, they will lose their effectiveness.  Lies depend upon the belief that people generally tell the truth to be effective.  If that belief is lost, then as with the well known parable of the boy and the wolf, then truth will be disbelieved, often resulting in tragic circumstances and in any case usually causing more harm than was prevented by the lies.  Hence while it is possible that in specific circumstances, telling a lie would promote the greater good, in general it will not and we lack the omniscience to know when it would.

[afleitch]

I've just told you an incident that left me quite shaken. I didn't wish to say it until it was clear you weren't getting it. Let's just say if a man pulls out a blade on you and says 'give me the cash in the wallet' don't do as I did. Give him the wallet. Tell the truth. If frustratedly he stabs you because there is no ready cash which is what he is after or marches you to empty your account be safe in the knowledge that you told the truth. You might be bleeding but at least you didn't lie. But what do I know. It only happened to me. I only work in the criminal justice system assisting victims. What do I know?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You know your own personal experience, one that I am fortunate to not have known.  I'll admit being frogmarched to an ATM was a distinct possibility (indeed, I never discounted the possibility of financial loss), but I still don't see why you are asserting that producing an empty wallet would have increased your risk of being sliced as his frustration at there being no ready cash should be just as great as with you having no wallet.  Perhaps there are crime statistics that show that it would make a difference, as illogical as that sounds to me.  Statistics would trump both logic and anecdotes in showing whether you increased or decreased the risk of you suffering physical harm.

But the whole question of good and evil is not a libertarian calculation of personal self-interest.  If it were, then everyone, even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Amin, Pot, and Assad is a paragon of good.  Good and evil always have to be discussed in terms of the effect of actions upon society.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

I think Ernest has a point in that you can't say for sure whether it was your lie that saved your life, afleitch.  I'm not saying there are no instances in which a lie is justified (I'd even say, as a Christian, that God is probably more interested in your well-being than if you lied to a potential killer.  If that makes me prideful, then let it be so), but you can never be certain of how someone will react in these situations.  Most of the time you can't.  He could've killed you whether you gave him the wallet or refused.

If I were you in that situation, afleitch, heck, I probably would've done what you did, but at the end of the day, you can never predict another person's actions.  Free will and all that.

[Free Speech Enjoyer]

But the whole question of good and evil is not a libertarian calculation of personal self-interest.  If it were, then everyone, even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Amin, Pot, and Assad is a paragon of good.  Good and evil always have to be discussed in terms of the effect of actions upon society.

What negative effect does lying to save your own life (not necessarily in the robbery scenario) have on society?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

But the whole question of good and evil is not a libertarian calculation of personal self-interest.  If it were, then everyone, even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Amin, Pot, and Assad is a paragon of good.  Good and evil always have to be discussed in terms of the effect of actions upon society.

What negative effect does lying to save your own life (not necessarily in the robbery scenario) have on society?

Well first off, while it might save your life, if it merely causes someone else to lose their life, then there is no positive effect to society as a whole.  Plus there are a number of negative effects if enough people lie so as to cause lie-telling rather than truth-telling to be the general assumption people make.

As a case in point, Andrew's lie worked for him because of the expectation that people are generally truthful that even criminals have.  Suppose inversely that he had been telling the truth when he said he had no wallet on him, but the criminal had an expectation that he would lie.  I doubt events would have transpired happily for him if that had been what had happened.

If I may use an analogy from the environment, lying can be thought of as a form of truth pollution.  If one has only a few coal burning furnaces, it doesn't cause any significant impact to society, but if there is too much coal use, you can end up with something like the Great Smog of '52 or the Beijing of today.