Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians since 2006 increase

[dead0man]

The Palestinians left in the expectation that it would be better to return alive after the Arab armies conquered than to die at the hands of Irgun and Lehi terrorists like those at Deir Yassin who had foolishly believed that if they were peaceful, they could receive peace in return.  It wasn't until after Deir Yassin that the Arab governments recommend that Arabs leave before they could be killed by Zionist thugs.  If they hadn't left, I fully expect that thousands more would have been massacred at the hands of those criminals.

Not all of them left, why didn't it happen over and over again anyway?

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This is one of the stupidest anti-zionist arguments one can ever hear.  So you want the Jews who were nearly exterminated by the Germans to take over a section of Germany....in 1946?  What kind of morons would the Jews be if they had accepted it and as Ray points out, it was certainly never an option anyway.  This is in the same level of stupid as calling Somalia a libertarian paradise or the claim that a black market is a free market because the govt isn't involved.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Not all of them left, why didn't it happen over and over again anyway?

If you take a look at the maps of where Arabs live today in Israel and of the 1947 partition plan, you'll notice that almost all of them live in what under the 1947 partition plan were to be Arab areas.  So yeah, they did leave until general war broke out and they got occupied too quickly to leave.

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Well, since I find the idea of carving out a Jewish State at the expense of people already living there generally stupid, doing it in Germany at least has the advantage of being a reciprocal action against people who had actually done unwarranted harm to the Jews.  The only place on Earth it wouldn't be totally stupid to carve out a new nation today is probably Antarctica or some southern islands.

[ingemann]

The Palestinians left in the expectation that it would be better to return alive after the Arab armies conquered than to die at the hands of Irgun and Lehi terrorists like those at Deir Yassin who had foolishly believed that if they were peaceful, they could receive peace in return.  It wasn't until after Deir Yassin that the Arab governments recommend that Arabs leave before they could be killed by Zionist thugs.  If they hadn't left, I fully expect that thousands more would have been massacred at the hands of those criminals.

Not all of them left, why didn't it happen over and over again anyway?

If you look at the Israeli demographic map, you will see that most Israeli Arabs live in the north, while the massacre happened near Jerusalem and in central Israel, there are a rather limited Arab presences outside East Jerusalem.



The low presence of Arabs in south Israel are not a result of ethnic cleansing, but due to the fact that it never had any major population at all.

[ingemann]

Not all of them left, why didn't it happen over and over again anyway?

If you take a look at the maps of where Arabs live today in Israel and of the 1947 partition plan, you'll notice that almost all of them live in what under the 1947 partition plan were to be Arab areas.  So yeah, they did leave until general war broke out and they got occupied too quickly to leave.

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Well, since I find the idea of carving out a Jewish State at the expense of people already living there generally stupid, doing it in Germany at least has the advantage of being a reciprocal action against people who had actually done unwarranted harm to the Jews.  The only place on Earth it wouldn't be totally stupid to carve out a new nation today is probably Antarctica or some southern islands.

Israel wasn't established as some kind of apology because of the Holocaust. It was established because Palestine had a large Jewish minority (around 1/3 in 1945, increasing to around half with the arrival of Jewish refugees from Europe before the Israeli independence), and the British grew so tired of Jewish terrorism, that they simply gave up, and asked UN to set up an independence plan for Palestine.

As for setting up a Jewish state in Germany, beside being really really stupid, it would also demand that the Allies transported 1 million Jews from Palestine to the land which had just committed genocide against them.

Of course I also see no problem placing them as an enclave between German population centre, none at all (sarcasm).
At least if you suggest this, take a place like Baden, Saar or Pfalz, which is a border area, or better yet Prussia, Farther Pomerania or Lower Silesia, which are all areas, which even today are thinly populated (and which historical was much more densely populated by the standards of the time).

[ingemann]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other". 

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

[politicus]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other". 

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

Thats his choice and pro-Zionist Jews are of much greater value to Israel in the US than in Israel itself.

[ingemann]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other". 

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

Thats his choice and pro-Zionist Jews are of much greater value to Israel in the US than in Israel itself.

I disagree, the Religious Right deliver the true support to Israel, so whether Mr. Goldfield and other of his ilk go "home" to Israel or not make little difference for the support to Israel in USA, and so he could just as well serve Israel on the ground.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other".  

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

I am fiercely loyal to my country of birth, but I am under no such illusions that they will always have the same loyalty to me.

Anything can happen when you're a controversial 2% of the population. It feels good to know there's an option.

[Indy Texas]

Not all of them left, why didn't it happen over and over again anyway?

If you take a look at the maps of where Arabs live today in Israel and of the 1947 partition plan, you'll notice that almost all of them live in what under the 1947 partition plan were to be Arab areas.  So yeah, they did leave until general war broke out and they got occupied too quickly to leave.

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Well, since I find the idea of carving out a Jewish State at the expense of people already living there generally stupid, doing it in Germany at least has the advantage of being a reciprocal action against people who had actually done unwarranted harm to the Jews.  The only place on Earth it wouldn't be totally stupid to carve out a new nation today is probably Antarctica or some southern islands.

Israel wasn't established as some kind of apology because of the Holocaust. It was established because Palestine had a large Jewish minority (around 1/3 in 1945, increasing to around half with the arrival of Jewish refugees from Europe before the Israeli independence), and the British grew so tired of Jewish terrorism, that they simply gave up, and asked UN to set up an independence plan for Palestine.

As for setting up a Jewish state in Germany, beside being really really stupid, it would also demand that the Allies transported 1 million Jews from Palestine to the land which had just committed genocide against them.

Of course I also see no problem placing them as an enclave between German population centre, none at all (sarcasm).
At least if you suggest this, take a place like Baden, Saar or Pfalz, which is a border area, or better yet Prussia, Farther Pomerania or Lower Silesia, which are all areas, which even today are thinly populated (and which historical was much more densely populated by the standards of the time).

You can't establish a monolithic religious-ethno-linguistic nation state where only one third to one half of the population is of that religion/ethnicity/language. You either make the state small enough that it only encompasses that group (Israel didn't do that); you abandon any attempt to make it an identity-based state (Israel refuses to do that); or you abandon democracy and marginalize everyone in the "out" group (Israel has done this in a de facto way by refusing to relinquish control of the West Bank but also refusing to fully integrate it and all of its residents into the country).

[Indy Texas]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other". 

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

I am fiercely loyal to my country of birth, but I am under no such illusions that they will always have the same loyalty to me.

Anything can happen when you're a controversial 2% of the population. It feels good to know there's an option.

This has got to be one of the most absurd things I've ever read. You're one of those ADL types who sees anti-Semitism around every corner. Do you seriously think the US is randomly going to turn into Russia and start launching pogroms and moving you into some Pale of Settlement? In a historical survey of groups of people who have been wronged by America and Americans, I wouldn't include Jews. This country more or less saved your ancestors from unpleasant fates elsewhere despite being under no obligation to do so. Sure, you weren't allowed to join the nice country clubs or live in the nice neighborhoods for the first few decades, but other than that, you have very little room to complain compared to say...black people, Native Americans, the Chinese, the Irish...

I fail to see how Jewish Americans are "controversial." I grew up in a part of Texas with an above-average amount of them and never saw anything "controversial" about them, nor did I observe any anti-Semitism or anti-anything else.

[ag]

Jews are not "Europeans". People do not get to run us out of our homeland, occupy it for thousands of years, spend thousands of years killing us for not being properly "European" and then tar us as "European colonialists" when it comes time to hold us accountable for THEIR past sins.

Jews, of course, were the archetypal unassimilable migrants of European history. But the Jews who founded Israel were not the same Jews, who had lived in the ghetto and the shtetl. They, unlike their ancestors, were a product of a "secular eruption" from the ghetto into the European society. They were no longer willing to live on the margins of Europe - they wanted to be an equal part of it. Their view of the "normal" was what they perceived as the European norm of their own time. Except that, by the time the Zionists got what they wanted, this was not the norm, as Europe understood it itself.

[ag]

The Jews didn't decide to expel Palestinians. The Palestinians were ordered to leave by the Arab States, so that they could commit a genocide on the new state of Israel. They agreed, happily.

We were supposed to let them all march back in after that?

Perhaps, you should study history from less one-sided sources

[ag]

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other".

You have little faith in US democracy, I see. If that were true, I guess, this would mean that about, say, 100% of US population were in the same position: nobody in the United States can confidently count on being a member of a majority coalition Then, again, I do not see the Amish asking for a homeland in Hesse

[ag]

Anything can happen when you're a controversial 2% of the population. It feels good to know there's an option.

There are dozens, if not hundreds small groups in the US that are a lot more controversial than the Jews at this point You yourself, probably, belong to quiet a few. I, sure, do (though, I am no longer in the US - but, hey, if anything, that should make me more worried). In fact, I would be hard-pressed to find anyone in the US who isn't.

I know exactly where your sentiments are coming from.  Unlike you, I, actually, grew up in the USSR. I did face anti-semitism myself and observed it around me. I lived in a society where anti-semitism forced our fellow-tribesmen together. These sorts of arguments were not merely a reheating of Zhabotinskyite pablum, but something I could personally relate to and develop.

Coming to the US was, actually, a shock: I had never before been in a society where Jewishness was
so much part of a norm. What surprised me at first was that, despite this fairly high level of integration and that sense of normalcy, many of my American Jewish acquaintances were retaining the defensive attitude that had been natural for me in Russia. Of course, old habits die hard, and  I did, eventually, learn was that Jewish current social status in the US is a fairly recent phenomenon historically. But, hey, it was decades-old then, and a few more decades have passed since. However uncurious you might be about the outside world, time to start noticing the changes.

In any case, there are two different readings one can make of Jewish history. One is that, since the ispravnik can screw you, you should be the ispravnik. That is the success of the Zionists: they got to be their own ispravniks.

The other reading, of course, is that of Europe's and America's Jewish liberals - and mine. Society should be organized in a way, where no ispravnik can screw anyone for being a part of any minority.  Fortunately, though US might not be quite there, it is pretty damn close. Liberal democracy is a wonderful thing.

[ag]

I fail to see how Jewish Americans are "controversial." I grew up in a part of Texas with an above-average amount of them and never saw anything "controversial" about them, nor did I observe any anti-Semitism or anti-anything else.

Though I disagree with your opponent on most important points, this particular comment made me laugh - sadly. If you have never been a part of a "controversial" minority, you would never notice My - ethnic Russian - childhood acquaintances back in the USSR used to never notice anything either: not vis-a-vis my tribe, not vis-a-vis anyone else (except, of course, for the haters themselves - those did notice ). My mother recently commented, her college classmates simply did not notice that few, if any, of the Jewish kids could go to grad school - even when their grades had been far superior to those who were admitted, and even though some of the programs at her university chose to cut the number of graduate student positions in order not to admit a Jew. You would not notice, when somebody says on the phone: "yes, we desperately need people for this job, let's schedule and interview for tomorrow, what's your name?" And then, upon hearing your name would respond: "sorry, I've just been told, we got somebody already". How would you know?

Of course, my lesson from that sort of thing has been to identify with the Israeli Arabs

[Horus]

And, of course, for the rest of the world it is just another European colonial project...

Yup.  I expect that in the long term, the stelladers will end up being as successful as the crusaders a millennium earlier were in holding onto to the Holy Land.

Actually, I sincerely hope, Israel will have a long an prosperous future Not because I like the Zionist idea - I consider it inherently flawed. But because two wrongs do not make a right. Israeli Jews have no other homeland anywhere in the world. They, over the last 2/3 of a century, managed to create an identity as strong as any. They do not need justify their existence any more than the French or the Germans do. While I do not think Israel has much to offer to a diaspora Jew, like myself, and while I do not have any self-identification with that state (which is as foreign to me as the Papua New Guinea), its existence and prosperity, clearly, are of utmost importance to the welfare, and, indeed, the lives, of its own, Israeli (not Jewish, but Israeli), people.

This is exactly why I equally sincerely hope they manage to go beyond copying the early twentieth-century European nation state and can truly become part of the Western world. Because otherwise, unfortunately, they do not have much of  a future.

Fair enough. I didn't know you were Jewish, incidentally.

As much as I love this country, I've always sort of been aware that I and my family and friends may be one bad economic crisis or Presidential election where a bad person wins from having to decamp. Part of this may be that I grew up in an area with a surprising amount of anti-semitism, so I was always keenly aware that lots of people saw me as "the other".  

If you feel that way, maybe your family and you should start putting your feet where you words are.

I am fiercely loyal to my country of birth, but I am under no such illusions that they will always have the same loyalty to me.

Anything can happen when you're a controversial 2% of the population. It feels good to know there's an option.

Jews will never be drove out of the US, nor are we particularly controversial. Take your tin foil hat off and drop the paranoia, we won't ever need to go anywhere.

[Vosem]

Jews are not a controversial minority in the United States, Ray. That doesn't mean that American Jews (and, in fact, all Americans) shouldn't be fervent supporters of Zionism, of course.

[ag]

Jews are not a controversial minority in the United States, Ray. That doesn't mean that American Jews (and, in fact, all Americans) shouldn't be fervent supporters of Zionism, of course.

Of course! There are many other, much more important reasons not to support Zionism