Opinion on "patriots" and actual respect for the flag

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

(split off from the COVID-19 thread to avoid further derailment)

Self-described "patriots"  - who are mostly white supremacists/ultra-nationalists, although they're often so lacking in self-awareness that they don't understand what they are - love to flaunt the flag of the United States, often in ways that are explicitly in violation of US law.

Some examples I've previously remarked on:





Link to the law: 4 U.S. Code § 8. Respect for flag

Here's a thread Jacobin started on this topic back in 2017.

I think the abuse of the flag by the right is both offensive, and that is serves as a near-perfect example of how broken, hypocritical, ignorant, and fake modern "conservatism" is.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Speaking of ignorance...

Do you complain during the olympics about US teams violating flag code, since most have the flag/parts of the flag on their athletic uniform?

2020 Olympic Uniforms for Team USA

Do you complain about the presence of the American flag on our military combat uniforms?

And from the link you unsurprisingly didn't bother to read:

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Thank you for the excellent example of why my rule of thumb treating self-identified Republicans as deplorable idiots is a good one. Now you're going off to ignore, where you belong.

[Mr. Reactionary]

If its Ok to kneel during the National Anthem, I dont see how its improper to wear Stars and Stripes bandanas. Flag fetishists care way too much about this. Legally we can burn and desecrate the flag, certainly then we can wear it. Its no more of a stretch to say its patriotic to wear a flag than it is to say that its respectful to protest during flag ceremonies.

[emailking]

I thought the law referred to wearing an actual flag as clothing, vs. clothing patterned as a flag.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

It should be obvious that including the flag on U.S. military uniforms is not a violation of the flag code.

I'm well aware of what the full flag code is and that military uniforms are not in violation, however this was mostly addressing the garbage, cherry picked argument Ghost of Ruin is making.

If he doesn't complain about every instance in which this is violated, he has no business complaining in this one.

I'd happily blow my nose and cough on the American Flag. While they aren't legally binding, the Flag Code regs are dumb and its amusing to see the feigned "patriotism" of flag fetishization by a lefty.

A basic level of respect for an important symbol costs nothing and is common courtesy. Desecration - of the flag or anything like it - should be done with deliberate intent, otherwise all that's being accomplished is making yourself appear as a thoughtless jerk.  (Before anyone here brings it up, the election of the coward Donald Trump has subjected  the Office of President of the United States to the respectability equivalent of the Siege of Baghdad. There's nothing there left to respect. Perhaps there will be again one day.)

I comment on the right's regular abuse of the flag because it's very revealing of who they really are. Things like the Flag Code date from a different, earlier time in the American zeitgeist. A time that "conservatives" suggest they wish to return to. But the combination of ignorance and lack of respect the right so frequently, publicly demonstrates (without comment from their fellows) the gap between what the American Right claims to be and what they really are.
 

[Mr. Reactionary]

It should be obvious that including the flag on U.S. military uniforms is not a violation of the flag code.

I'm well aware of what the full flag code is and that military uniforms are not in violation, however this was mostly addressing the garbage, cherry picked argument Ghost of Ruin is making.

If he doesn't complain about every instance in which this is violated, he has no business complaining in this one.

I'd happily blow my nose and cough on the American Flag. While they aren't legally binding, the Flag Code regs are dumb and its amusing to see the feigned "patriotism" of flag fetishization by a lefty.

A basic level of respect for an important symbol costs nothing and is common courtesy.

I know of many symbols important to a lot of people that others happily debase and disparage despite it costing nothing to just ignore them. The American Flag doesn't get to be special in this regard.

[dead0man]

people who feel they must wrap themselves in the flag to prove how 'murican they are often the worst Americans.

[beaver2.0]

people who feel they must wrap themselves in the flag to prove how 'murican they are often the worst Americans.

Exactly.  Surrounding yourself with the superficial representations of the United States doesn't make you patriotic, it just makes you look foolish.  True patriotism is found in a healthy respect for the United States, the carrying out of your duties towards the state, and participation in the republic.

[beaver2.0]

If its Ok to kneel during the National Anthem, I dont see how its improper to wear Stars and Stripes bandanas. Flag fetishists care way too much about this. Legally we can burn and desecrate the flag, certainly then we can wear it. Its no more of a stretch to say its patriotic to wear a flag than it is to say that its respectful to protest during flag ceremonies.

I agree with this to some degree.  I don't see anything wrong with wearing something with the flag on it and if you want to kneel, fine, that's your right though I personally am not going to see that.

Something I have noticed however is people, as dead0man said, surrounding them in the flag.  It almost seems like there is this feeling that prominently displaying our flag often is a perquisite to being patriotic.  In some cases it just looks tacky and frankly, participation in democracy is more important to being a patriot than having a flag.

[fhtagn]

Speaking of ignorance...

Do you complain during the olympics about US teams violating flag code, since most have the flag/parts of the flag on their athletic uniform?

2020 Olympic Uniforms for Team USA

Do you complain about the presence of the American flag on our military combat uniforms?

And from the link you unsurprisingly didn't bother to read:

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Thank you for the excellent example of why my rule of thumb treating self-identified Republicans as deplorable idiots is a good one. Now you're going off to ignore, where you belong.

If you actually had any reading comprehension skills, I also explained that I recognize what that full flag code actually says, however your cherry picked positions on it are pure garbage and make very clear this isn't an issue you actually care about.

You also didn't address other scenarios that I brought up, probably because you know you don't have a valid argument.

You are just a hypocrite. Thank you for proving it so I didn't have to go through making an effort post to do so.

[S019]

These people aren't patriots, they're just right-wing virtue-signalers, anyways, clear HP's

[fhtagn]

These people aren't patriots, they're just right-wing virtue-signalers, anyways, clear HP's

You do realize America-themed apparel, accessories, decorations, etc. aren't only worn or produced by right wingers, right? I can give you a list of just as many people and businesses that cater more to the left that violate the flag code in the same ways.

For example, would you also say these are clear HPs?

Image source: Twenty20.com Photo by: Megan Petersen



Image source: RuPaul's Drag Race, World of Wonder for Logo TV, VH1

[It’s so Joever]

I don’t know why this is controversial?
Are we really going to argue over a technical flag law just to own the cons?
It’s mixed.
Some people who wear the flag are FF’s, some are HP’s. Depends on their actual politics and character. Apparel doesn’t dictate whether you are an FF or not.
I guess I just don’t see the big deal here.

[Santander]

I don’t know why this is controversial?
Are we really going to argue over a technical flag law just to own the cons?
It’s mixed.
Some people who wear the flag are FF’s, some are HP’s. Depends on their actual politics and character. Apparel doesn’t dictate whether you are an FF or not.
I guess I just don’t see the big deal here.

Exactly. What we should be talking about is the hypocrisy of some "law and order" types who are suddenly celebrating people breaking the law. (I mean government shutdown orders, not flag-related laws)

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I don’t know why this is controversial?
Are we really going to argue over a technical flag law just to own the cons?
It’s mixed.
Some people who wear the flag are FF’s, some are HP’s. Depends on their actual politics and character. Apparel doesn’t dictate whether you are an FF or not.
I guess I just don’t see the big deal here.

Exactly. What we should be talking about is the hypocrisy of some "law and order" types who are suddenly celebrating people breaking the law. (I mean government shutdown orders, not flag-related laws)

That line has always been squishy. Civil disobedience for me and not for thee.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I don’t know why this is controversial?
Are we really going to argue over a technical flag law just to own the cons?
It’s mixed.
Some people who wear the flag are FF’s, some are HP’s. Depends on their actual politics and character. Apparel doesn’t dictate whether you are an FF or not.
I guess I just don’t see the big deal here.

Exactly. What we should be talking about is the hypocrisy of some "law and order" types who are suddenly celebrating people breaking the law. (I mean government shutdown orders, not flag-related laws)

That line has always been squishy. Civil disobedience for me and not for thee.

     It is definitely tricky. We need the rule of law in society, but sometimes unjust laws make fairly radical forms of protest necessary. Not saying I think the laws here are unjust, but the determination of what is is unjust must necessarily lie with the protester.

     And while I generally abhor the usage as being unnecessarily inflammatory, attacking protesters for violating the flag code is 200-proof fake outrage. I don't believe for a second that people are actually that bothered by someone wearing the pattern of Old Glory to a protest.

[Sestak]

oh are we doing this dumb argument again

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This isn't really a question for debate but a #hottake disguised as a question.

Giving the level of hostility in this thread, as well as dubious copyright status of images posted by OP, it is locked.