US secretly listens to Merkel's telephone calls - Merkel "not amused"

[Leftbehind]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Oceania is now allied with Eurasia.

[Oakvale]

I'm assuming this is similar to the case where Flanby was feigning indignation over NSA monitoring to distract from the fact that France does the exact same thing?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Good. I still don't trust the Teutons, especially given their aggression against the poor Greeks/Italians/Spaniards/Irish.

[Middle-aged Europe]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

[minionofmidas]

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

I honestly think the only acceptable (though not an even theoretically feasible) outcome is to bang up in jail for an extended all those responsible - on the German government side that is. That includes the relevant people (chancellor, interior minister, foreign minister) of the Schröder as well as both Merkel cabinets, of course.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Frontpage of today's TAZ:

"NSA reveals: Merkel's dangerous terrorist network"

(they even included her mother! )




http://dl.taz.de/taz/shop/download_action.php?model=20100&typ=seite1

[minionofmidas]

lol.

[Ban my account ffs!]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

German democracy:  Of the Germans, For the Germans, By the Allied Forces.

Obviously Germany can take care of itself nowadays but for better or for worse, in the eyes of the American government, you guys are still on parole.

[Franzl]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

German democracy:  Of the Germans, For the Germans, By the Allied Forces.

Obviously Germany can take care of itself nowadays but for better or for worse, in the eyes of the American government, you guys are still on parole.

It's rather ironic that the American government considers itself a suitable guardian of freedom and democracy these days.

[AkSaber]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

German democracy:  Of the Germans, For the Germans, By the Allied Forces.

Obviously Germany can take care of itself nowadays but for better or for worse, in the eyes of the American government, you guys are still on parole.

It's rather ironic that the American government considers itself a suitable guardian of freedom and democracy these days.

Good luck trying to point out that particular hypocrisy. Hell, the liberals now are just as delusional and arrogant as the conservatives were under George W.

[Middle-aged Europe]

In related news, the NSA's official website (www.nsa.gov) is currently offline due to an alleged DDoS attack.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/nsa-gov-down-denial-service-attack-rumored-8C11469380

[Middle-aged Europe]

As for the actual fallout of the whole affair... the personal relationship between Barack Obama and Angela Merkel is probably permanently damaged as a result of this. When Obama was in Berlin this summer, he allegedly assured Merkel that U.S. surveillance measures are not directed against Germany or something. Which means that he either lied to her or he didn't know of this either.

Not sure how far anyone is actually willing to go on SWIFT and TTIP. Suspending the agreements has a certain appeal among many members of the European Parliament, including the parliament's current president, but the ultimate decision rests with the national governments.

In any case, Germany and France are apparently pushing now for the so-called "no-spy agreement" with the United States. We'll see how willing the U.S. government is in making concessions here.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

How does Troll Tender not get 10 points for the  nipple shot?

[Leftbehind]

The American moderators never look in this section.

[Ban my account ffs!]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

German democracy:  Of the Germans, For the Germans, By the Allied Forces.

Obviously Germany can take care of itself nowadays but for better or for worse, in the eyes of the American government, you guys are still on parole.

It's rather ironic that the American government considers itself a suitable guardian of freedom and democracy these days.

No less so today than in 1945.  It's just that enough Americans are willing to admit it now so it gets talked about.

I certainly wouldn't trust any other country to be guardians of freedom and democracy... so it might as well be my country

Just being honest.  I don't mean to imply that what we're doing isn't wrong and shouldn't be stopped and that we shouldn't apologize to Germany for doing it...

But the hypocrisy line won't get you very far.  Germans are still terrified of being registered and counted for rather salient reasons.  That is also a form of hypocrisy.

[Silent Hunter]

That'd be really mean. Citizens of Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and the ROC should have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA+Switzerland, and vice versa.

Officials and employees of the U.S. government don't have a "right to work" outside of U.S. territory unless the respective government agrees to it.

Which is why the German government's reaction is pretty half-assed. I mean, they invited the spies who spy on them into our country in the first place.

German democracy:  Of the Germans, For the Germans, By the Allied Forces.

Germany was already a democratic country before the Nazis came along.

[minionofmidas]

It had a democratic constitution... that almost the entire rightwing half of the population never accepted (this includes even the DVP). That's like saying Spain in the early 30s was a democratic country.

[Middle-aged Europe]

And a Bundestag committee of inquiry on the NSA's activites in Germany seems more and more likely at this point. SPD, Greens, and Left want it, CDU says it isn't entirely opposed to the idea either. Bundestag is probably gonna vote on it in a special session on November 18.

There's also a discussion whether it's feasable to get Edward Snowden to Germany for a testimony before the committee... an idea which is primarly pushed by Greens and Left, but also some in the SPD:

http://www.dw.de/can-germany-call-on-snowden-as-a-witness/a-17186463

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The stupid thing for the White House to do was claim Obama was unaware.  That gives an impression that he's either Nixon-esque (telling them to do whatever they need to and keep him in the dark), not in control of the NSA, or he lied.  And now it appears that he lied as a report has come out saying that Obama has known about the tapping of Merkel's phone since 2010.

[Famous Mortimer]

The US is not suspicious of German. They are not "on parole."

We just spy on everyone. I'm sure we're tapping Cameron's phone too and Harper's and Netanyahu's.

I assumed that even before the Merkel story broke.

[Middle-aged Europe]

We just spy on everyone. I'm sure we're tapping Cameron's phone too and Harper's and Netanyahu's.

I suppose Israel is fair game. Wiretapping Cameron and Harper would violate the Five Eyes agreement though. So if the NSA does wiretap them I wouldn't necessarily assume that they were explicitly authorized by the White House to do so.

Anyway... Green party MP and member of the Bundestag intelligence committee Hans-Christian Ströbele met Edward Snowden in Moscow on Thursday. That stirred up the debate in Germany how Snowden could testify for the Bundestag committee of inquiry which will be set up later this month.

Letting him come here would effectively result in Germany formally refusing an extradition request by the U.S. government. Since this is considered politically inconvenient, representatives of the incoming CDU/SPD government seem to favour a testimony by Edward Snowden in the German Embassy in Moscow... an option certainly least favoured by Snowden himself because he'd very much like to swap Russia for Germany as his place of residence.

http://www.dw.de/might-snowden-get-asylum-in-germany/a-17201788

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/snowden-tells-german-lawmaker-he-is-willing-to-testify-in-nsa-scandal-a-931237.html

[Franzl]

Giving Snowden asylum would be the only proper thing to do, although it's not going to happen.

Only problem is I doubt we'd be very able to protect him from criminal acts against him by America.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Giving Snowden asylum would be the only proper thing to do, although it's not going to happen.

Only problem is I doubt we'd be very able to protect him from criminal acts against him by America.

The Ruskies have him well guarded or he would "disappear", for sure.