SC Gov Mark Sanford

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2) Must be a woman or minority of some kind (i.e. black, hospanic, Catholic)

Catholics are not a minority.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2) Must be a woman or minority of some kind (i.e. black, hospanic, Catholic)

Catholics are not a minority.

Ummmm... yes, we are.

Have we suddenly become the majority religion over night?

Catholicism is not a religion. It is a branch of the majority religion though. It is also the largest branch, and thus a plurality and thus not a minority.

Am I a minority? There's a hell of a lot more Catholics in the US than ELCA Lutherans.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2) Must be a woman or minority of some kind (i.e. black, hospanic, Catholic)

Catholics are not a minority.

Ummmm... yes, we are.

Have we suddenly become the majority religion over night?

Catholicism is not a religion. It is a branch of the majority religion though. It is also the largest branch, and thus a plurality and thus not a minority.

Am I a minority? There's a hell of a lot more Catholics in the US than ELCA Lutherans.

1) By your logic, then Blacks are not a minority or a race because they are just a branch of a larger human kind.

2) Protestants make up one group, Catholics the other.  There are far more Protestants in the country then there are Catholics.

1) You said largest religion, not largest religious group. If I said blacks were a minority species that'd be a valid analogy.

2) I think a group that includes me and Jerry Falwell is a little too broad, huh?

Besides, religion is not an inherant trait, one can change it. One can argue that every president is a minority then since a plurality of the population is independent and not a member of either of the two main parties. Thus all Democrats and Republicans are minorities.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2) Must be a woman or minority of some kind (i.e. black, hospanic, Catholic)

Catholics are not a minority.

Ummmm... yes, we are.

Have we suddenly become the majority religion over night?

Catholicism is not a religion. It is a branch of the majority religion though. It is also the largest branch, and thus a plurality and thus not a minority.

Am I a minority? There's a hell of a lot more Catholics in the US than ELCA Lutherans.

1) By your logic, then Blacks are not a minority or a race because they are just a branch of a larger human kind.

2) Protestants make up one group, Catholics the other.  There are far more Protestants in the country then there are Catholics.

1) You said largest religion, not largest religious group. If I said blacks were a minority species that'd be a valid analogy.

2) I think a group that includes me and Jerry Falwell is a little too broad, huh?

Besides, religion is not an inherant trait, one can change it. One can argue that every president is a minority then since a plurality of the population is independent and not a member of either of the two main parties. Thus all Democrats and Republicans are minorities.

Obviously you know absolutly nothing of Catholic or ethinic politics.  I wouldn't expect you too, being from the midwest.  But I come from a highly ethnic area where Protestants are extremely anti-Catholic.  Not in an overt way, but there are clear differences between the groups.

um, Minnesota is plurality Catholic. You really think they don't exist up here? And I have NEVER seen any Catholic/Protestant religious turmoil.

You can give all the sob stories you want, but comparing John Kerry's strength in areas to the Catholic populations so virtually no correlations. Hell, you probably think I'm an "anti-Catholic bigot" (even though no such thing can exist) and I voted for one in November. Oppressed minority? Plus you think the few cases of discrimination that might occur don't happen to Protestants in largely Catholic areas?

The point also still stands that religion is not inherant and can be changed. Going by your logic, I could argue all Republicans and Democrats are minorities.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If it goes to the guys that have 'paid their dues,' then it's probably McCain's or Rudy's turn. 

Since we didn't have any sort of challenge in '04, I'd say that it is wide open in '08.  I really do'nt think that McCain will even run.  I saw him on TV tonight and he didn't look well.

I keep thinking Frist is a lock for some reason.  I dont have a detailed analysis why, but I really think hes gonna' win the primary.

edit: not really a lock, but you know what I mean, the favorite.

good!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He's also pretty overrated, people are just judging him based on pure potential. Does he have a great record as governor? According to our two South Carolinan posters, both independents, it's hardly stellar.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Ummm... according to my research Minnesota is less than a quarter Catholic.

less than a quarter is still a plurality. There's over 1.2 million Catholics in Minnesota. The second highest group is my denomination, ELCA, which has 850k.

I don't know this for sure, but something tells me that, seeing as this is the midwest, most of those Catholics are German Catholics, and thus, no tmuch different from their neighbors.

yes they are mostly German, and I guess they are not much different from their neighbors since they're white. But among whites, how are Germans and Scandinavians basically the same?  This is from someone who is 3/4 Scandinavian and 1/4 German.

Quite a different story when you have an area liek mine where a vast majority of Catholics are Italian, Irish or Polish and they are out numbered by English, German and Scottish Protestants.

Have you ever been to St. Paul?

And even if people are still fighting among ethnicities when in fact almost everyone considers all of the above group as simply "white", do you really think the same stuff doesn't happen to English, German and Scottish Protestants in heavily Italian, Irish or Polish Catholic areas? And why do they get along worse than Scandinavian Protestants and German Catholics?

Kerry didn't poll high in high Catholic areas because ethnic Catholics didn't identify with him.  Plain and simple.

Or because hardly anyone cares about this when they vote anymore.

Why can't an anti-Catholic bigot exist?

Can an anti-Democrat or anti-Republican one exist?

And, no, I have never seen much Catholic on Protestant bigotry, cause we don't really care much.  Catholics recongnize the fact that we are all Christians.

Read the beliefnet forums sometime.

Most Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christians, rather, we are some wierd cult that worships the Pope and Mary.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say. Most? You're the one who earlier talked about Catholicism as a seperate religion, and I corrected you on it. I have never said said Catholics are not Christian. I actually called jmfcst on this, even though it was really just a cheap shot, and even he denied he ever said so. I have never met anyone in real life who has claimed this, and know of no one outside of a few loons who think Jack Chick is right. If you think that represents the vast majority of Protestants, you are clearly deluded indeed.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Now, dumby AuH2O apparently wants to nominate another Goldwater who will lose to the Democrats in a landslide and take the Senate with him.  Yeah, that's not going bring on more socialism or anything.

Sanford is far from being a Goldwater. He'd do better in the North than most other Republicans.

Are you telling me that you honestly believe Sanford can be elected in Pennsylvania and Michigan?  I only know of him because I know politics.  In 2008, he will be 6 year governor of South Carolina.  Why not run Senator Thune, if we are looking to gain nothing by the virtue of our candidate?

In the meantime, bringing forward the governor of South Carolina will be a huge sign to the rest of the country that, inspite of having tons of great candidates from all over the country, we went with this guy, because he plays well with Evangelical Southerners.

What kind of message does that send?

It tells me that we are not a National Party.

No, he couldn't win Michigan or Pennsylvania. However, he could win New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and possibly even Oregon.

He doesn't play particularly well with evangelicals- he's pretty secular. And I hate to tell you this, but the GOP isn't a truly national party anymore. Neither are the Democrats.

So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

it's a valid excuse because neither party can be one. We're never going to suceed in rural Nebraska or Mississippi, which I can accept. Now you need to accept that you'll never suceed in Minneapolis or San Francisco.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So, simply saying "niether are the Democrats" is an good enough excuse for not doing it?

I'm saying that the GOP doesn't particularly need to carry states in the Northeast, which is true.

So "we don't have too" is a good enough excuse then?

You don't have to carry Vermont to win. Does that really bother you then that you have no chance of doing so?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Are there any countries that do have true "national parties" that aren't one party dominated states anyway?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I mean, I can't believe someone actually calls themselves a Republican after playing the victim card FOR BEING CATHOLIC! That is unbelievable. Truly remarkable victimology.

I'll ignore the rest of the garbage you wrote and say that for here I actually do agree with you. Anyone who thinks that being a Catholic makes an oppressed and discriminated against minority in this country, and the vast majority of Protestants think Catholicism is a Mary worshipping cult definately has a victim complex.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You just don't understand.  I can't give you a better answer than that.

You don't identify with your faith, that's why you see it as a political party.  Most people don't.  Esspecially when that faith is part of your ethnic identity.  And trust me, if an Italian Catholic ran for President, Italian Catholics would come out in droves to support them and Polish and Irish Catholics would probably support that candidate as well.

You think that Jack Chick is an isolated loon.  Let me tell you that he is not.  Again, something I know from personal expireince that I guess you just can't know.

People don't have to be as far out as him to be anti-Catholic or believe wierd things about Catholics either.  It is rare that I meet a Protestant who knows anything about the Catholic Church, other than the lies they have always been told.

You distorted what I said, anyway.  I never said seperate religion.  I just said that we aren't Protestants.  We are all Christians.  Fact is that Protestants don't see it that way.  Once again, something you would have to expirience to understand.

Just ask Phil.  He isn't lying.  Neither am I.

That is not to say that Protestants would not vote for a Catholic, although some wouldn't.

Um yeah, Ferraro gave Mondale such a huge boost among Italian Catholics, right? Kerry was an Irish Catholic.

To people in this country, it's all white. I'd laugh at anyone who'd honestly think I would be more prone to support someone for any campaign just because they were a Scandinavian Lutheran, which is just as "ethnic" as everyone you listed.

I do believe Jack Chick is an isolated loon on account of the fact that I have never met anyone who likes him period, and this includes times in the past when I have trolled conservative message boards. Not to mention anyone who trulely believes the garbage he writes but be seriously mentally deficient since there's so many holes in it its not even funny, the classic Dungeons and Dragons tract is a prime example. You basically are claiming that the vast majority of Protestants agree with Jack Chick on Catholics, which is just hilarious.

You claim that I believe a lot of lies I've been told by my mom, but I have never said Catholics aren't Christian, and neither has she. And she voted for the same Catholic in November as I did. Sheesh, you're making Pennsylvania sound like some third world country full of ethnic strife, when it's just as diverse as Minnesota, which has nothing of the sort you're describing.

Why don't you ask Al about how popular Ian Paisley is and whether he gets overwhelming support from most British Protestants too by the way. I have to say I doubt there's much since I have never met a Brit who doesn't consider him a complete lunatic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Jfern,

We're all partisan her, but you're a total hack.

It should be obvious to anyone non-partisan who pays attention that Condi Rice is a major league liar.

It should be also be obvious to anyone non-partisan that she would never be mentioned if she wasn't a black woman anyway. Her and Gonzales are the reasons conservatives should never whine about affirmative action, not to mention earlier I frequently heard Republicans basically say "Democrats should not oppose Rice because she is black and thus should be allowed to have any job she wants. Democrats should not oppose Gonzales because he is Hispanic and thus should be able to have any job he wants."

Just hypocrisy.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Um yeah, Ferraro gave Mondale such a huge boost among Italian Catholics, right? Kerry was an Irish Catholic.

This is why Super is right and you are wrong.  Going to mass does not make you Catholic, living a life based on Church teaching does.  Driving your wife to the brink of suicide, divorcing her and marrying your colleague's rich widow, backing abortion on demand, and raising a daughter who wears a see trough dress to the Cannes film festival is not Catholic.  Kerry is a Catholic in name only.  Ferraro is also a Catholic in name only.  They are elite northeastern liberals who subscribe to a cocktail party ideology and use their religion for show.  Real Catholics sense this, and don't consider these people to be Catholic.

so what the hell does this have to do with ethnicity then? There's plenty of Irish and Italian Catholic folks who have opebo-esque lifestyles (hell, look at Flyers), and I bet there are plenty of German Catholics here who despite supposedly being closer to other whites than the people listed above who are Opus Dei nutcases.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Um yeah, Ferraro gave Mondale such a huge boost among Italian Catholics, right? Kerry was an Irish Catholic.

Ferraro was an unknown VP candidate running against a well established incumbent.  You couldn't have thought of a worse example.

Oh, yeah, and John Kerry seemed really ethnic and Catholic to me.

You basically said people would flock to someone on the basis of their ethnicity and religion alone. That obviously didn't happen. So Kerry didn't play the race or religion card. Doesn't change the facts

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No it isn't.  Obviously you have never been to the Polaski or the Litz Club.[/quote]

You think there aren't places in Minnesota that are super-ethnic Scandinavian? And guess what, outside of those places the people from there are just white. And in places that have lots of transplants here like where I live or the Twin Cities, no one cares what brand of white you are.

They might not agree with Chick, which I never said, but they still believe a lot of stuff that is laughable (or sad, depending) non-the-less

as do you as you said earlier in the thread that most Protestants believe Catholicism is not Christian and a cult. And the issue is if they believe Catholics are not Christian. Almost no one outside of a few fundamentalist lunatics believes this. I dare you to find any mainline Protestants who believe this.

Thankfully, I don't need you to believe me to know that I am right.  I never seem to recall accusing you, or even all Protestants of anything either.

Most Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christians, rather, we are some wierd cult that worships the Pope and Mary.

um, yeah

Most Protestants don't even consider Catholics to be Christians, rather, we are some wierd cult that worships the Pope and Mary.

But if you deny that there isn't a strong vain of anti-Catholic bias in this country... well it is always easy to not notice these things when they aren't happening to you.

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in what way? When have there been any major anti-Catholic hate crimes since some Klan activities in the 70s? Conservatives first claim that problems of massive discrimination against blacks and women are no longer issues and gays don't have major problems with this either, and now claim there's massive amounts of anti-Catholic discrimination in the US? LOL!

I don't remember talking about Britian.

Well it's basically the same situation and in fact should actually be worse since they still have the Northern Ireland thing and all of the strife in the past from all the various kings switching churches and all. And yet, even there, Paisley/Chick type loons have very little support. So why would most Protestants here which has never had anything similar believe things similar to such nutcases?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Um yeah, Ferraro gave Mondale such a huge boost among Italian Catholics, right? Kerry was an Irish Catholic.

This is why Super is right and you are wrong.  Going to mass does not make you Catholic, living a life based on Church teaching does.  Driving your wife to the brink of suicide, divorcing her and marrying your colleague's rich widow, backing abortion on demand, and raising a daughter who wears a see trough dress to the Cannes film festival is not Catholic.  Kerry is a Catholic in name only.  Ferraro is also a Catholic in name only.  They are elite northeastern liberals who subscribe to a cocktail party ideology and use their religion for show.  Real Catholics sense this, and don't consider these people to be Catholic.

Thank you, John.  Exactly.

Example of a Catholic Democrat who might get a lot of support from the ethnic community:

Tom Vilsack

How's he any different from Kerry? He's pro-choice and opposed anti-gay legislation.

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1) Being of any German, English, French, Dutch or Scandanvain decent in this country cannot be compared with being of Irish, Polish, Italian or other Eastern European decent, because the former groups have always been accepted by the people of this country as those groups existed from the founding of the country.  The former, however, were often rediculed and and bigoted against because they were "foriegn", but also because they were Catholic (most of the French in early America were Hugnouts).  It wasn't until the 60's that we even started getting out of the ghettos in most places.

If you don't believe in the power of ethnic politics, study how Mike Dukakis won the nomination.  He won it largely thanks to very high turnout in Greek areas.  This isn't a guarentee of success.  The candidate must share common values with the ethnic group.  These values might be political, but they often transend the political as well.  Kerry did not share these values with most ethnically Irish, or most Catholics.

I was raised in an Italian family.  I have a friend who is acctually a "blood" Italian.  I'm more Italian than he is, because his family basically moved out of the ghetto and beat all of the Italianess out of themselves.  All that is left now is a last name.  So there are no hard and fast rules.  Which kinda prove my point about Kerry.

2) You want to find anti-Catholism, search the internet.  It really isn't that hard.

That belittles my point, however, which has been, from the begining that anti-Catholic bias in the country, though not raging, like it was as little as 50 years ago, is still present in daily life.

3) The British have rejected the rampent anti-Catholisism that you see in Northern Ireland, yes.  It is always easier to look at seething hate and see what is worng with it.  When bigotry is more subtle is when it is much more easily accepted, as is the case here.

4) Not so subtle things have happened.  In a town only 30 miles away from here, the Protestant churches spent a full year pulling their resources to pass out anti-Catholic literature, including many Chick tracts.

5) They then hit the town right next to mine, but it didn't last nearly as long because the community there is much larger and they put a stop to it.

6) Regardless of what you say, the average Protestant knows about as much of the truth about Catholic Teaching as a fish knows about riding a bike.

1) Yes, there was some discrimination quite about a century ago. That does not happen today. I dare you to find any white supremecists who don't consider those groups white. Hell, Italy and much of Eastern Europe even sided with the Nazis.

2) You can also easily find on the internet claims that the Holocaust did not happen. Does that mean a significant number of the population believes this? Yes, I can easily find Chick or Paisley's loony sites, but finding people who believe them is a much more difficult task.

Not to mention you can find anti-Protestantism on the internet pretty easily as well. Take a look here: http://www.catholicism.org/eens.html

Yes, you'll no doubt say you don't agree with that site, and that the vast majority of Catholics don't either, which I'll believe. But it's ludicrous to say that and then that most Protestants agree with Jack Chick.

3) And what are the examples? I find it hilarious you've defended Bush's visit to Bob Jones University though if you think this is so rampant, and then think it's find to visit one of the few places that actually does preach this stuff.

4) Then are women who have had abortions a minority? Strippers? They've been harassed much more than these obviously born again fundagenical churches than Catholics.

P.S. Ever heard of the National Council of Churches? I gurantee you no one from that group was involved. And they are just as large if not larger than the evangelical churches. Then add in the evangelical churches that do not consider Catholics non-Christian or whatever, and you have a much larger group of Protestants than Chick and Paisley loons.

5) Therefore the Catholic church got more defense than abortion clinics usually do.

6) might be true, might not, I don't know. But to say the average Protestant thinks Catholics aren't Christian and just a bizarre cult is ing idiotic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD,

You are, of course, the original perpetrator of this whole thing.  Thank you for concentrating on one point of my argument in some attempt to discredit me.  This wasn't even a point.  It was a sub-point of a point.  You could have said that is was great of me for being a progressive thinker and thinking that a woman or minority could do the job, but intead, you attacked me for say that Catholics are a minority when pretty much any political science professor who has study voting patterns would agree with me.

actually no. You're basically advocating affirmative action. I will never take anyone's race or gender into account when voting for them in a primary. I will vote for the candidate I like best.

That website you posted is bogus, by the way.  No Catholic would ever descirb themselves as being "slave" to anything, let alone Mary's Immaculate Heart.

yes, it's an incredibly ridiculous loony site that very very few Catholics would agree with. Just like Chick and Paisley's sites are ridiculous loony sites that very very few Protestants agree with.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

oh and Al, just exactly what percentage of the population would you estimate supports Paisley? Is there any part of the country where a majority of people would be big fans of him? Is he overall perceived as semi-credible or just a huge loon? Scary that people like Pat Robertson are considered semi-credible here, and also scary is Paisley is considered the same in the UK.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Southerners should "step aside" for an affirmative action nomination?

Guess what-- that's not 51% of the populations view. They were just afraid of Kerry. If you think most Republicans want amnesty, you're living in a dream world. Most HISPANICS don't support amnesty, let  alone Republicans.

I have this weird notion, where the best candidate should get the nod. Hmm, thought that was America, but "Republicans" like soulty and ford apparently disagree. If I'm going to have a racist government, it may as well be led by Democrats... f**ck Republicans that hate the base of their own party.

Bush slid by because of the war, but that's not happening in 2008. There's going to be a line drawn... protect this country's borders, get our finances back in order. If the Republican won't do that, he won't win-- period. I'll help put a Democrat in the White House before being neutral on a RINO or Affirmative Action pick, and so will a lot of people.

Democrats, they just want to win elections. Republicans, according to traitors like ford, are not interested in winning... we have to surrender on the issues so that we can get some magical number and declare ourselves uniters. So give in to socialist medicine, mayhem on the border, massive deficits, the blocking of good judges... just give in. That's what most people that win do-- surrender.

Then some nitwit tries to lecture me on fallacies? lol, incredible. Almost as hilarious as some turncoat lecturing people on the Republican Party.

Just out of curiosity, do you honestly believe that Rice and Gonzalez getting their current jobs had absolutely nothing to do with their races (and thus affirmative action)? If so I have some nice oceanside property in Minnesota to sell you.

(The same goes for all other anti-affirmative action Republicans)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD,

You are, of course, the original perpetrator of this whole thing.  Thank you for concentrating on one point of my argument in some attempt to discredit me.  This wasn't even a point.  It was a sub-point of a point.  You could have said that is was great of me for being a progressive thinker and thinking that a woman or minority could do the job, but intead, you attacked me for say that Catholics are a minority when pretty much any political science professor who has study voting patterns would agree with me.

actually no. You're basically advocating affirmative action. I will never take anyone's race or gender into account when voting for them in a primary. I will vote for the candidate I like best.

It isn't affirmative action.  The people I was talking about acctually earned their way in.  Affirmative Action is when you set a particular quote, with no regard for whether or not someone earned their way more than anyone else.

wow, you are ignorant. Quotas != affirmative action. In fact, quotas have been illegal ever since the 1978 Supreme Court decision Board of Regents of University of California v. Bakke. I oppose race based affirmative action, but I will admit many people have no clue what it is. Giving people positions partially because of their race is affirmative action, even if they are also qualified, if their race is a factor, and I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face Rice and Gonzalez's races weren't factors, especially since Republicans kept bringing it up whenever they bashed Democrats for opposing them. And what you have suggested above is affirmative action for your party's nominee.

That website you posted is bogus, by the way.  No Catholic would ever descirb themselves as being "slave" to anything, let alone Mary's Immaculate Heart.

yes, it's an incredibly ridiculous loony site that very very few Catholics would agree with. Just like Chick and Paisley's sites are ridiculous loony sites that very very few Protestants agree with.

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The difference is, of course, that Jack Chick sells millions of tracts every single year, and guess where they end up?  On my door step.

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I know someone who collects them and finds them humorous. Not everyone who likes them is because they agree with them. I find them humorous too, since Chick is so out of the loop it's a wonder anyone takes him seriously.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

6) Even worse, has your family been split apart because one side is Catholic and the other is not?

not directed toward me, but this does apply to my family like I've said before my mother's side is Catholic, and there has never been any type of split, nor have I seen any resentment from anyone on my mother's side toward her or one of her sisters who also renounced the church.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Quotas may be a form of affirmative action, but it's irrelevant now. They are illegal. And it's not the form of affirmative action you are advocating. Taking anyone's race into account at all is affirmative action, even if it's not the top priority.

A bunch of fundagelicals may like Chick, yeah, but they are still a very very very small portion of the population, and of Protestants. Do you believe most members of National Council of Churches denominations like Chick?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Its not like I want the South out of our party, or anything.  I would much rather have them in, believe me.  I'm glad that we have such a solid base.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt any to expand the base and win over more states.

Right now, Missouri is not in the "base".  Ohio is not in the base.  Iowa is not in the base.  Florida is not in the base.  Nevada and New Mexico are not in the base.  Without them, we can't win.

and you just can't magically add them while keeping the far right policies that your base in the south demands. When a party has a far right base, it can't add moderate states to the base.

P.S. There is no such thing as a national party outside of a one party system. Deal with it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well like I've said I don't support quotas or race based affirmative action. I just find it ridiculous Republicans can whine about it, and then use it for their cabinet appointments and nominating candidates.