What are the economic and political ramifications of the fracking boom? (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 25, 2024, 06:26:53 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, Chancellor Tanterterg)
  What are the economic and political ramifications of the fracking boom? (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: What are the economic and political ramifications of the fracking boom?  (Read 3647 times)
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« on: August 09, 2013, 06:50:23 PM »

Climate doom and gloomism aside, we're headed in the right direction.

Well natural gas is a bright spot because unless I'm wrong we aren't really exporting  that the way we are exporting refined gasoline so despite the wishes of big oil we may actually be able to keep the price of natural gas low.

Refined gasoline won't fall in price until we have exported enough to drop prices on the global market.  I am not an expert but I don't see that happening any time soon.  In fact we are the low cost producer of refined gasoline and export it to Mexico!  So yeah Michelle Bachmann's lunacy about $2 gas is plain idiocy.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 07:13:51 PM »

It may not reduce gasoline prices at the pump so much as simply keep them stable, as this new supply just exceeds demand(someone check that).

It won't.  Gasoline is easily sold on the global market and if it can be sold at a more expensive price in Mexico it will go there.    It really doesn't matter where the oil comes from.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2013, 07:55:52 PM »

I cant see how anything negative comes from this.

I personally have never seen any complicated widely implemented technology that didn't have some negative aspects.  The internet?  Problems too numerous to name.  Cell phones?  Distracted driving.  Pouring Olympic pool size volumes of a witch's brew of chemicals at high pressure into the environment?  Yeah, it's conceivable that there may be one or too issues.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/fracking-energy-exploration-connected-earthquakes-say-studies-6C10604071

Doesn't mean it should be banned but saying there are no negative consequences sounds a little naive.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2013, 08:09:40 PM »


Maybe that it uses a lot of water?  That's what I got from that.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2013, 11:07:33 PM »
« Edited: August 09, 2013, 11:10:33 PM by Link »

Climate doom and gloomism aside, we're headed in the right direction.

Well natural gas is a bright spot because unless I'm wrong we aren't really exporting  that the way we are exporting refined gasoline so despite the wishes of big oil we may actually be able to keep the price of natural gas low.

Refined gasoline won't fall in price until we have exported enough to drop prices on the global market.  I am not an expert but I don't see that happening any time soon.  In fact we are the low cost producer of refined gasoline and export it to Mexico!  So yeah Michelle Bachmann's lunacy about $2 gas is plain idiocy.

We're never going to impact global supply enough to do that, even with current production levels.

That was my point.  Everyone screaming at Obama because of gas prices needs to look at the every increasing EXPORTS of domestically distilled gasoline.  We already produce more than we can use so producing more isn't going to bring the price down at the pump.  That's why the idea we can "drill" our way to lower prices is insane.


As for natural gas, you have the infrastructure problem when it comes to exporting the stuff. Sure, you can ship it out in liquid form, but that costs money.

Again that's my point.  Natural gas isn't going to be exported as easily so it's lower domestic price makes sense and can be seen as sustainable... unless domestic demand really picks up.

I don't think allowing export of our supply is going to prohibitively raise domestic prices for that reason - we'll only be exporting so much.

I wasn't aware there was any legal restriction on exporting it.  The only restriction I see is financial.

As for the virtues of cheap natural gas, there are negative consequences to that too. You're killing the already weak Appalachian economy, not to mention the railroads that don't have carloads of coal to ship anymore.

All changes cause disruptions.  I think the government should help smooth out these disruptions.  Natural gas should be taxed and the money should be used for education and job training for coal and railroad workers.  That really is what government is there for.   And the Natural gas tax should expire within a set number of years so it doesn't become an indefinite tax that no longer serves it's intended purpose.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2013, 11:22:44 PM »

Meanwhile, Britain is converting coal plants to wood pellet burning plants... where are those wood pellets coming from?  Not from deforested Europe... but from American forests.  Europe's shortsighted "green" energy policy is deforesting America now.  Not long after they helped deforest the Amazon to grow soybeans for their eco-friendly vegan BS food.

Oh, I see.  This was meant to be a troll thread.  The United States is by no stretch of the imagination "deforested" or even close.  And the United States is the biggest consumer of wood in the world not Britain.  You should travel over there sometime.  Do you think they would think it is normal to build a house out of wood?  Get a grip man.  Only in America do people build entire houses out of wood.  From an ecological point of view British people would never do something that irresponsible.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 10:48:32 AM »

Meanwhile, Britain is converting coal plants to wood pellet burning plants... where are those wood pellets coming from?  Not from deforested Europe... but from American forests.  Europe's shortsighted "green" energy policy is deforesting America now.  Not long after they helped deforest the Amazon to grow soybeans for their eco-friendly vegan BS food.

The green energy movement is such a colossal joke in Europe.  Germany will never produce enough energy from wind and solar at a cost that doesn't cripple their economy.  And their kneejerk reactionary greens forced the removal of a low emissions, safe, clean source of energy (nuclear).

At the same time, the windmills are cranking out power on the high plains... to the tune that 17.5% of Minnesota's electricity comes from wind now.  (The rest comes from natural gas, coal, and nuclear)

Guys I know Snowguy tends to get a little over excited about this topic so let me just insert some facts in this thread.  Here is the energy mix of the UK...



This caricature of the UK shutting down all their coal plants and opening brand new shiny wood pellet plants is a delusion.  Wood pellet planets make up such a tiny portion of the overall UK energy mix they aren't even broken out.  There are forestry problems in the US but they aren't caused by a miniscule number of wood pellet plants in the UK.  Get a grip Snowy.

You have to look at a countries entire energy mix.  You can't just cherry pick a couple of plants and then slander an entire country.  Let's look at that nuclear portion of the pie which dwarfs a handful of wood pellet plants.  Let me ask you this Snowy which country do you think has a history of recycling their nuclear waste in reprocessing plants and there for reduced the need for mining of new uranium?

The green energy movement is such a colossal joke in Europe.

I suppose you could say that about the UK because in relation to fossil fuels it is tiny.

A well maintained woodframe home will last just as long as one made out of carbon intensive, non-renewable materials you seem to advocate (from an eco point of view, of course Roll Eyes)

Well that's the real key isn't it?  You still have to maintain your house once it is built.  Instead of cherrypicking dubious facts I like to take an all encompassing look at real facts.  The concrete homes built in the US have R-values that crush stick and paper homes.  There are people in various parts of the US that have electric bills that are over $800 a month.  Now that is not every month but you consider living in a house 30-40 years and that is a lot of "maintenance".  Toss in structural maintenance and the numbers look even worse.  Rodents and pests?  Wood and paper again is even worse.  Then toss in weather disasters and the numbers are beyond appalling.  Let me ask you a question.  All these houses were completely demolished by Hurricane Katrina except for one.  What do you think it was made out of, concrete or stick and paper?  What were all the house that are now going to populate an ecologically responsible landfill made out of?  Which country do you think takes more regular direct hits from hurricanes?



The fact you don't want to touch is the United States is the largest consumer of wood.  The other fact you don't want to touch is one of the main causes of our forestry problems is wide spread illegal logging.  Sitting here as an American and blaming a couple of LEGAL wood pellet plants in the UK for our own irresponsible behavior is why so many people despise us all over the planet.  Your slander of the UK is ugly American on steroids.

By the way that doesn't mean I think every single energy policy in the UK or any country for that matter is going to be a bright idea in the long run.  I think there should be experimentation on a small scale.  And I hardly think 6.6% is reckless or something to slander a foreign country over.  Let's be reasonable.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 11:35:20 AM »

It fits in with American economic policy perfectly.  A nice little short-term boom... with prices dropping for a little while so Americans can go buy more crap... followed by a long series of periodic depressions spurned on by our same dependence on gooks and gases that emerge from the ground.  Of course, this is what the gas companies want.

Nat gas producers are not the villains here in regards to prices to consumers.  They are not living high on the hog.  People have gone crazy with fracking and dropped the floor out from under the price of domestic Nat gas.  This is not the same as soaring gas prices, record profits at big oil companies, and demanding subsidies from the tax payer.

These guys are creating good paying domestic jobs and producing cheap energy for domestic consumption.

What's wrong with this graph?



I like it.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 12:45:00 PM »

This is a CAPITALIST country, oh proud and valiant savior of Hyrule... you expect THAT to stay the same?  

Relax man.  I was just stating the case as it is today.  There  is no fracking conspiracy.  These guys are just drilling and trying to get in on the boom.  They are not toppling governments and exploiting people in third world countries.

I have nothing against nuclear and I think it is insane not to provide federal funds to research it.  We should follow a French model and have one or two plant designs and move forward with that.  But ignoring the dirt cheap gas under our feet would be crazy and exploiting it is not a conspiracy.

I don't know how many real years worth of energy we have under our feet.    But we should be researching the next big thing.  That's what the government is there for.  Let these guys frack all they want and the government should look out for environmental concerns, coal miners, and nuclear research.

There really is no need for anyone to be hostile or accusatory.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 08:14:28 PM »


F'ing bastards.  Where is the government?!
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.044 seconds with 10 queries.