Question for Theists/Believers

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

All those who believe in God answer me:

Were you ever an atheist?

No, babies being atheists (if you believe that) doesn't count.

[DC Al Fine]

I was a deist during my "rebellion phase" but that doesn't count.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Nope.  I have always believed in some kind of God, even as my perception has changed.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I don't think so.

[Pessimistic Antineutrino]

Nope.  I have always believed in some kind of God, even as my perception has changed.

This.

I've questioned my faith before but never left religion entirely.

[H. Ross Peron]

I think I might have been an atheist in an apathetic sort of way until I was ten or so.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

No.  I did go thru an agnostic phase, but ultimately decided in favor of the proposition that the Divine exists.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Belief in spirituality not religion. Belief that human existence lies in realms not immortal realms like Heaven or Hell. Belief that god the father who is Jesus is actually a person not an immortal god. In revelations it says that there will be an appocolypse but will he reveal himself as a person or a spirit leaves room for non believers. Can it also be that some parts of the mind survive death and lead to another life?

Followers of Jesus, left vague, because death itself is unknown.

[pbrower2a]

I have come to the conclusion that any God that ever existed has established laws by which the universe operates and enforces them rigidly.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I have come to the conclusion that any God that ever existed has established laws by which the universe operates and enforces them rigidly.

Why?

Take as a given the estimate of the age of the observable universe of 15 billion years of which less than one millionth of that is covered by human history.

Now, let's take by comparison a large clock tower, say Big Ben, over the course of a single week. One millionth of that would be less than a second.  If we'd been around for such a short period, would we really be in any position to judge that the chimes never sound?  Even if we could reason out that the chimes could sound, would we be able to judge what causes them to sound.  For that matter if we observed the mainspring, would be correct to assume that eventually it would wind down and the clock would come to an end.

I think that is the number one flaw in the thinking of many atheists, that because the Divine does not constantly indulge in showy miracles, it must not exist.  Clearly our studies of nature show that the Divine does not operate on the same timescale as humanity.

[John Dibble]

I think that is the number one flaw in the thinking of many atheists, that because the Divine does not constantly indulge in showy miracles, it must not exist.  Clearly our studies of nature show that the Divine does not operate on the same timescale as humanity.

Query - which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate on any timescale at all, human or otherwise?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I think that is the number one flaw in the thinking of many atheists, that because the Divine does not constantly indulge in showy miracles, it must not exist.  Clearly our studies of nature show that the Divine does not operate on the same timescale as humanity.

Query - which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate on any timescale at all, human or otherwise?

By definition, if the Divine exists, it has since the beginning of existence.  Unless you're secretly a YEC as well as an atheist, that means the Divine has been around for at least billions of years.  That is not a human timescale.

[afleitch]

I think that is the number one flaw in the thinking of many atheists, that because the Divine does not constantly indulge in showy miracles, it must not exist.  Clearly our studies of nature show that the Divine does not operate on the same timescale as humanity.

Query - which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate on any timescale at all, human or otherwise?

By definition, if the Divine exists, it has since the beginning of existence.  Unless you're secretly a YEC as well as an atheist, that means the Divine has been around for at least billions of years.  That is not a human timescale.

So before the Big Bang there was no divine?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

By definition, if the Divine exists, it has since the beginning of existence. Unless you're secretly a YEC as well as an atheist, that means the Divine has been around for at least billions of years.  That is not a human timescale.

So before the Big Bang there was no divine?

Whether the Big Bang was the beginning is unknown.  Some cosmological theories consider the observable universe that began with the Big Bang to be only a part of existence.  In any case, if it exists, the Divine has been around for at least billions of years and can count on existing for at least billions more.  That alone is sufficient to establish the proposition that the Divine does not operate on a human timescale.

[afleitch]

By definition, if the Divine exists, it has since the beginning of existence. Unless you're secretly a YEC as well as an atheist, that means the Divine has been around for at least billions of years.  That is not a human timescale.

So before the Big Bang there was no divine?

Whether the Big Bang was the beginning is unknown.  Some cosmological theories consider the observable universe that began with the Big Bang to be only a part of existence.  In any case, if it exists, the Divine has been around for at least billions of years and can count on existing for at least billions more.  That alone is sufficient to establish the proposition that the Divine does not operate on a human timescale.

But it does not prove that the divine exists of course. As Dibble asked, which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate?

[DC Al Fine]

By definition, if the Divine exists, it has since the beginning of existence. Unless you're secretly a YEC as well as an atheist, that means the Divine has been around for at least billions of years.  That is not a human timescale.

So before the Big Bang there was no divine?

Whether the Big Bang was the beginning is unknown.  Some cosmological theories consider the observable universe that began with the Big Bang to be only a part of existence.  In any case, if it exists, the Divine has been around for at least billions of years and can count on existing for at least billions more.  That alone is sufficient to establish the proposition that the Divine does not operate on a human timescale.

But it does not prove that the divine exists of course. As Dibble asked, which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate?

Ernest's original point was addressing Pbrower's assertion:

I have come to the conclusion that any God that ever existed has established laws by which the universe operates and enforces them rigidly.

ie: It's not about God existing or not existing, it is a question of his what God does assuming he exists.

The assertion was that God enforces the way the universe operates rigidly. Ernest believes that we have no good reason to believe that because of the minuscule amount of time humans have been around in the grand scheme of things. It's like looking west from Lisbon and assuming there is no land beyond because you can't see any.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

But it does not prove that the divine exists of course. As Dibble asked, which studies of nature have shown the divine to operate?

As DC al-Fine has already pointed out I wasn't addressing whether the Divine exists but what we can ascertain of its character would be if it does.  (Not that I doubt in the existence of the Divine, but for me that is a matter of faith rather than something proven by empirical data.)  It's also why I used a generic Divine rather than a more specific conception such as God.

[pbrower2a]

I have come to the conclusion that any God that ever existed has established laws by which the universe operates and enforces them rigidly.

Why?

Take as a given the estimate of the age of the observable universe of 15 billion years of which less than one millionth of that is covered by human history.

Now, let's take by comparison a large clock tower, say Big Ben, over the course of a single week. One millionth of that would be less than a second.  If we'd been around for such a short period, would we really be in any position to judge that the chimes never sound?  Even if we could reason out that the chimes could sound, would we be able to judge what causes them to sound.  For that matter if we observed the mainspring, would be correct to assume that eventually it would wind down and the clock would come to an end.

I think that is the number one flaw in the thinking of many atheists, that because the Divine does not constantly indulge in showy miracles, it must not exist.  Clearly our studies of nature show that the Divine does not operate on the same timescale as humanity.

The best case for God is that the Universe makes sense and that we around to make sense of much of it.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I would argue that the second half of your statement is the more signficant part, pbrower. Why should actual individuals—sentient creatures—be around to experience the universe? Why should there be "reality" for billions of people? It's the hard problem of conciousness, right? You can talk about blood cells and nerves and spinal cords and brains, but at the end of the day, these things do not (and I believe can never) explain the actual abstract experience of sight, taste, hearing, touch, or smell.