Confederate Battle Flag

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

What most people don't know about history is that the first slave owner in our country was a black man from Massachusetts.

  Maybe because it isn't true?  Care to provide a source for your claim?  Now according to the Wiki, the first recognized slave owner in the English colonies was indeed a black man, Anthony Johnson, but he was in Virginia.

That said, the main reason that slavery prospered in the South and yet withered and was eventually abolished in the North had much more to do with circumstances than moral fortitude. The Southern colonies proved favorable to the development of plantation agriculture with crops such as tobacco, indigo, and rice that could be profitably cultivated with slave labor and widely traded.  The Northern colonies by contrast were not so well suited in land or climate for plantation agriculture.  Thus they never had much incentive to transform their system of indentured servitude to full fledged slavery.

Other than being wrong about the state which the first slave owner in our colonies was from, you have backed me up. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one on here who knows his history. If only Democrats knew why the north was "against" slavery. They have to turn everything into a race issue for their own benefit.

Actually, I suspect that the reason he was the first recognized slave owner is that being black, he had to go to court to prove he owned his slaves.  Likely there were other white slave owners at the time who didn't have their right of ownership contested.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Barf, read Apostles of Disunion by Charles Dew.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Slavery was bad, though so was invading the South over them trying to form their own country. It's government of the people, by the people, for the people...except if the people want out, in which case it's just tough [inks].

I think I disagree.  I've thought about this and gone back and forth, but I think Lincoln deserves to be recognized as a hero for "saving the union."  Sure, the charge of tyranny was fair owing to the suspension of habeus corpus and martial law, but he certainly didn't deserve to be executed over that.  In any case, if the Republicans in congress had lost the stomach for war after those first two losses at Bull Run, or if Lincoln hadn't pursued the war in the first place, this continent would have reverted to being an imperial European playground.  The precedent for disunion would have been set.  Others would have followed, and nothing was really holding the confederacy together except a common loathing for the Republicans, so basically there would be no great American nation.  No counterbalance to the terrible ideologies and histories of Europe in the 20th century.  Who knows how history would have unfolded?  Likely, our lives would have been very different.  My grandparents all migrated to this country in the early 20th century, but likely that would not have happened if there was no land of opportunity to which to migrate.  We might all be running scared from German and Russian nukes right now in a bipolar fascist/communist world if the United States hadn't been preserved by Lincoln and the Republicans.

While I have nothing against the battle flag of the confederacy--or the swastikas that Hindus wear on their shirts and the many that adorn Buddhist temples in the Far East, or OC tattoo on California Penitentiary inmates, or the hammer and the sickle, or other symbols that seemed to have taken lives of their own in the minds of the people--I still think that the crushing of the rebellion, however legal it may have been, was very much in the best interests of the American people.

     Eh, hindsight is 20/20. We can look back now and say that a strong United States made the difference in winning World War II or the Cold War. Along those lines, I see that you make the case that it would have permanently weakened the idea of the United States, but I wonder. The parts of the country that tended to attract the most immigrants at the time were still part of the union. Even if secession were seen as being more acceptable, this was by far the most divisive event in the country's history and it still took decades to reach a tipping point. I have my doubts as to how much losing the South would have actually affected the evolution of our country's history.

     Slavery was bad, though so was invading the South over them trying to form their own country. It's government of the people, by the people, for the people...except if the people want out, in which case it's just tough [inks].

I don't recall any slaves having a say in whether a new country in which they'd be kept in perpetual servitude would be formed. Oh, right: of, by and for (61% of) the people.

     As far as I'm concerned, that's the best argument to be made for the war happening. There are limits on what people can do in a democratic society, but there are also limits on what limits can be imposed. To me, limiting a change in associations that happens to be supported by the supermajority of the public because it is "treasonous" crosses all limits and is simply reprehensible. The issue at hand is that many people were deprived of their voice in the matter, meaning that there wouldn't have been a real supermajority in favor of the action.

     The CSA was an interesting case of people acting for bad reasons, so it's tough for me to sympathize with them being stopped. There are other examples where I have no real reservation with supporting secessionist forces, such as Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, &c. seceding from Serbia in the 1990s. Funny enough, I think many of the same folks decrying Southern secession as treason would have actually supported that one.

[Хahar 🤔]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

[bedstuy]

Anyone who knows American history, knows that the South's desire to maintain the slavery system was the reason for the Civil War.  Thus, the raison d'etre for the Confederacy was slavery.  So, celebrating and identifying with the iconography of the Confederacy is tantamount to  supporting for slavery and racism.

We all know slavery was horribly wrong. The truth is very few people actually owned slaves. What most people don't know about history is that the first slave owner in our country was a black man from Massachusetts. Yes, the south was trying to protect slavery but it's not like the north had any higher morals. They simply wanted to end slavery in order to cause suffering for the southern economy which in turn would give northern Republicans even more political power as southerners would've migrated north. At the time the radical Republicans were already at a huge advantage and abolishing slavery was their final move for complete control. I have mixed views on the Confederate flag. It is part of my state's heritage so while I'm proud of my state's heritage, I'm not particularly proud of slavery. Bottom line is that the abolition of slavery is a mute point in discussing who was right and who was wrong on the Civil War because neither side really had a problem with it on moral grounds despite what Republicans and northern politicians were saying. There was no intention of forcing the southern states to eliminate slavery until after the war as a concession to re-entering the union. Concessions are what happens when one side loses to another in a war. Slavery was something very beneficial to the southern economy and therefore the north abolished it. It is VERY naïve to think the Civil War was only over the morality of slavery. 

That's like saying it's OK for a German to put a Nazi flag on his BMW.  After all, the Soviet Union was bad too and the Allies didn't fight WWII to help out the Jews. 

If only it were a good comparison. Nazis and slave owners were apples and oranges. I know Democrats don't want people to know this, but most slave owners took good care of their slaves and slaves accepted slavery because it was all they knew. This wasn't the case for the Jews in WWII. Of course it's easy to look back and talk about how wrong slavery was now. If it was all someone was brought up around in a time where it was rare to travel more than a county from their home, then they're not going to have been exposed to any other ideas about slavery being immoral. I suppose you'll say that Nazis were fed war propaganda from their media and didn't know what they're country was really doing. What does it matter why the Allies got involved? The fact that Nazism was stopped is the important thing. The same can be said for slavery. It was wrong and should've been abolished like it was. If you want to go ahead and tell a German they can put a swastika on their BMW, go ahead. Common sense can tell the difference. There were no gas chambers or concentration camps for slaves. Did you even know the swastika originated in the Indus Valley in antiquity and literally means "to be good?"  What about the early American flags where there were thirteen stars in a circle? Should we ban those because some of the colonies allowed slaves then? Give me a break.

Is that some of your patented witty satire?  Because I don't find it witty and I can't tell whether you're being satirical or just stupid.

My point on this is simple.  The Confederacy was formed as an attempt to maintain slavery in the South.  That was its purpose.  So, if you choose to identify with or celebrate the Confederacy, you're choosing to identify and celebrate slavery.  And yes, slavery was a horrifying, violent and evil system.  But, there's no point on going back and forth on this because you're just making up history and not using basic logic.

[DemPGH]

Choice 2. Under that flag the South seceded and attempted an invasion of the North in order to march on Washington. At the present who seems most interested in it are certain types of young males, so I think of it as more a symbol of ignorance than anything presently.

[barfbag]

Choice 2. Under that flag the South seceded and attempted an invasion of the North in order to march on Washington. At the present who seems most interested in it are certain types of young males, so I think of it as more a symbol of ignorance than anything presently.

It really depends on how it's being used. My stepbrother is 16 and has one in his room, but is it worse than other kids his age who get into drugs and alcohol? He's not hurting anyone.

[7,052,770]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

[barfbag]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

They have a sense of pride though!

[Dr. Cynic]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

They have a sense of pride though!

Pride in what? Losing? Cause that's what they did. They lost. They would lose the war no matter what was going to happen, because England was not going to enter on their side as long as they held people in bondage and that was the only thing that could have saved the day.

[barfbag]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

They have a sense of pride though!

Pride in what? Losing? Cause that's what they did. They lost. They would lose the war no matter what was going to happen, because England was not going to enter on their side as long as they held people in bondage and that was the only thing that could have saved the day.

England was irrelevant. They have pride in what they stand for. I have no idea what winning or losing has to do with pride in what one believes in.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

They have a sense of pride though!

Pride in what? Losing? Cause that's what they did. They lost. They would lose the war no matter what was going to happen, because England was not going to enter on their side as long as they held people in bondage and that was the only thing that could have saved the day.

England was irrelevant. They have pride in what they stand for. I have no idea what winning or losing has to do with pride in what one believes in.

What one believes? Are you referring to institutional racism, owning of other human beings, and so on, Mr. Bag?

[Rooney]

The Confederate Battle Flag, just like the United States Flag, is a piece of cloth. It is just a piece of cloth. It can be burned without issue or used as a table cloth. Flags are only cloth, no need to get upset.

[barfbag]

Naturally the treason argument is silly; the reason that the Confederacy was evil is not that it was treasonous.

You're of course correct, but it sure does make the pro-Confederates squirm.  Remember that the people who wave Confederate flags the hardest are the people who wave American flags the hardest and are normally very offended by the idea of anyone being treasonous.

They have a sense of pride though!

Pride in what? Losing? Cause that's what they did. They lost. They would lose the war no matter what was going to happen, because England was not going to enter on their side as long as they held people in bondage and that was the only thing that could have saved the day.

England was irrelevant. They have pride in what they stand for. I have no idea what winning or losing has to do with pride in what one believes in.

What one believes? Are you referring to institutional racism, owning of other human beings, and so on, Mr. Bag?

No and I've continuously made that clear.

[politicallefty]

I suppose there's a strong case that can be made that it is treasonous in today's context. However, that can be extended to anyone that supports independence or revolution. It's just a matter of who wins the war. It's pretty much the same as war crimes tribunals. Only the losing side pays the price. As much as I despise that flag and all it represents, those that flew it were no more traitors of the Constitution than the signers of the Declaration of Independence were against the Crown.

I have a personal disgust with whoever flies that flag today (especially those outside the South), but I do think it is constitutionally-protected free speech.

[Torie]

Treason, slavery, and white supremacy.

This about sums it up. I would have been tempted myself to try Robert E. Lee for treason (a military officer sworn to uphold and defend the US Constitution, who resigned to join the enemy in a treasonous cause, rather than do his duty and lead the Union troops to a much swifter victory). What that man did was a disgrace, and cost a lot of lives. And it never bothered his conscience either. I might add that if the South had managed to succeed, it may well have taken over most of the Caribbean and Mexico, and convert them into slave hell holes. The rebel South was a cancer that needed to be exorcised, and forever interred.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I believe the "Lost Cause" narrative has very much changed what the battle flag stands for. Racism still exists in the South, but I don't think these people get enough credit for the progress they've made, especially considering the place in history where they're coming from. White men are best friends with their black neighbours. That didn't happen before.

Call it revisionist history, but today, to what I would venture to guess is a majority of Southerners, the Civil War is not something that was about race or slavery. I think this attitude is unfortunate because it disregards the suffering of a lot of people, but, at the same time, it gives Southerners a shared story to look back on in their history. I do think the Confederate battle flag, today, is more about Southern heritage than it is about slavery.

I'd have no business to parade it around myself, especially outside of the South, but I definitely "get it," and I don't believe it is an inherently evil symbol.

[Marnetmar]

A symbol of traitors who tried to leave the United States for slavery.  Granted, the vast majority of Southern whites didn't own slaves, but (unless they individually stayed loyal to the Union) they did fight against the Union on behalf of the rights of the rich to own people.  Absolutely shameful.

Anyone who tries to argue "bbbbut it wasn't really about slavery!!1" is an apologist moron.

The fact that it's become the beloved symbol of Dixiecrats, the KKK, and other white supremacists should be a clue to the people who aren't sure...

You nailed it. Anyone who uses it as a symbol for Southern pride needs to take a good look at history and themselves. You may as well be a German flying a nazi flag as a symbol of German pride and say that the nazis weren't all bad. Completely illogical.

[barfbag]

A symbol of traitors who tried to leave the United States for slavery.  Granted, the vast majority of Southern whites didn't own slaves, but (unless they individually stayed loyal to the Union) they did fight against the Union on behalf of the rights of the rich to own people.  Absolutely shameful.

Anyone who tries to argue "bbbbut it wasn't really about slavery!!1" is an apologist moron.

The fact that it's become the beloved symbol of Dixiecrats, the KKK, and other white supremacists should be a clue to the people who aren't sure...

You nailed it. Anyone who uses it as a symbol for Southern pride needs to take a good look at history and themselves. You may as well be a German flying a nazi flag as a symbol of German pride and say that the nazis weren't all bad. Completely illogical.

Anyone who views the German Nazi flag as a symbol of German pride is ignorant of history. The schwastika was originally used as a symbol of peace in Buddhism.

[roadkill]

A symbol of traitors who tried to leave the United States for slavery.  Granted, the vast majority of Southern whites didn't own slaves, but (unless they individually stayed loyal to the Union) they did fight against the Union on behalf of the rights of the rich to own people.  Absolutely shameful.

Anyone who tries to argue "bbbbut it wasn't really about slavery!!1" is an apologist moron.

The fact that it's become the beloved symbol of Dixiecrats, the KKK, and other white supremacists should be a clue to the people who aren't sure...

You nailed it. Anyone who uses it as a symbol for Southern pride needs to take a good look at history and themselves. You may as well be a German flying a nazi flag as a symbol of German pride and say that the nazis weren't all bad. Completely illogical.

It is perfectly acceptable for symbols to have different meanings for different people.  I grew up in the South and for the vast majority of people it is a symbol of Southern Pride.  That may sound weird to a lot of people outside of the South or the concept of Southern Pride might also sound strange.  But, growing up there it seems that the attitude of others towards the region is flatout bigoted and prejudice.  As if they expect you to apologize for being Southern.  That they think less of you for simply being Southern.  So, we become irrationally prideful of our culture and over celebrate our heritage and symbols.  It's a symptom of cultural polarization.

Having said that, no one from the South should have any misgivings or try to play ignorant about what the Confederate Battle Flag means everywhere else in the US or to non Southerns.

Also, having now lived on the East Coast for about 15 years, I have no idea what people in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and other non Southern states are doing flying it.

[7,052,770]

It's 100% totally fine to have Southern pride -- it's just not OK to express it with the flag of a bunch of people who tried to form a separate country to keep their slaves.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It's 100% totally fine to have Southern pride -- it's just not OK to express it with the flag of a bunch of people who tried to form a separate country to keep their slaves.

Maybe they're fans of the Dukes of Hazzard or the Haunted Tank?

[barfbag]

It's 100% totally fine to have Southern pride -- it's just not OK to express it with the flag of a bunch of people who tried to form a separate country to keep their slaves.

Maybe they're fans of the Dukes of Hazzard or the Haunted Tank?

You're a fellow southerner. What are your thoughts on the Confederate Flag?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It's 100% totally fine to have Southern pride -- it's just not OK to express it with the flag of a bunch of people who tried to form a separate country to keep their slaves.

Maybe they're fans of the Dukes of Hazzard or the Haunted Tank?

You're a fellow southerner. What are your thoughts on the Confederate Flag?

Southerner by birth, but not breeding.  My parents were Yankees who had moved south and my ancestors were Canadians and Dutchmen at the time of the war.  The South could use a symbol less tainted with the heritage of slavery than the Flag, but there isn't one.

[roadkill]

It's 100% totally fine to have Southern pride -- it's just not OK to express it with the flag of a bunch of people who tried to form a separate country to keep their slaves.

Is it OK for someone to celebrate their Jewish heritage by raising or waving the Israeli flag, even though it is highly offensive to the Palestinian people?