Opinion of the Alawites

[politicus]

Laying aside the question of why people should give up their culture, just because a dictator comes from their ethnic group (I guess you think the Georgians should have given up their culture because of Stalin).

The Alawites are already the most secular group in Syria and Alawites in the cities are typically not very religious. So religion is not the trigger factor here.

Also, where should they convert to?

Atheist/agnostic doesn't work as an escape route in this context, Druze is a closed club and Christianity just make you a members of another vulnerable minority. The Sunni community is a much more conservative and demanding religion and at least for women it would mean a more restrained role, its also joining their old oppressors and a society that traditionally had a very low opinion of Alawites. Its not likely they would be allowed, even if they wanted to.

Alawites are traditionally allowed to hide their identity and pretend they are Sunnis for security reasons, but this is not easy in a modern society, someone will know who you are.

One other thing BRTD, some Alawite clans have gained from the regime others not so much. If your clan rival made it big in Damascus you no longer just have them on the next mountainside, but in charge of the Ministry of Agriculture, or somewhere else you need services from. So the idea that they all support Assad is rather flawed, but they are a despised underdog group where some made it big by taking control of the army and socialising the Sunni upper class wealth. The hatred against them is quite strong in some quarters.

There is a lot of old hate, even without citing ancient massacres from 1300s and 1500s or the deeds of the Assad regime you still have stuff like:

- In the 1850s a prominent Sunni mullah issued a decree allowing Sunnis to kill and steal all property from Alawites because they where infidels, it was considered a virtuous deed to kill an Alawite.

- Alawite share croppers where serfs and only kept 20% of their crop.

- In the 20s and 30s almost 25% of all Alawite births was from servant girls impregnated by Sunni masters, girls often send away as young as 8-9 from dirt poor families.

- Alawites made their progress from collaborating with the French colonial authorities.

[politicus]

In discussing to what extent the Alawites are Muslims its interesting that they have a number of non-Islamic feasts, mostly Christian:

Nawruz (The Persian New Year - held in Spring and symbolising the change from cold to heat)
Mihrajan (also Persian, symbolizing the change from heat to cold in the Autumn)

Christian feast days:
Christmas
Epiphany  
Pentecost
Palm Sunday, but not the rest of Easter
The feasts of Saint John the Baptist, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Barbara and Saint Mary Magdalene.

So no wonder some late 19th century French anthopologists thought they were "lost Christians".

I personally find the OP rather silly, but Alawites quite interesting, so I hope we can broaden this discussion a bit.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Not liking a group's support for a murderous dictator is not advocating genocide against them. Calling for an end to apartheid for example was obviously not supporting an Afrikaner genocide.

Yes, but using the way of thinking you displayed in the opening post, because of the Apartheid every single Afrikaner was "horrible"

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Alawite are very secretive about their faith. It's hard to research them. We're talking about an extremely closed group. No one can "become" an Alawite - you need to be born one.

We can look into testimonies of "former" Alawites, but it's tricky one. I remember my professors stressing that pretty much no outsider ever reached Alawi scriptures. And fragments, that suppousely did leak, are very hard to verify. Alawites are mighty good with disinformation.

Definitively fascinating group.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Stalin didn't treat the Georgians any better than any other group and they weren't a crucial pillar of support for him. A better example would be like renouncing the culture of some group that sided with the Nazis, like people who renounced Croat heritage and joined the partisans and fought the Ustashe and the Nazis. The people identifying as the "Yugoslav" ethnicity included some people who were disgusted by Croat heritage and refused to identify with that.

But like I've said before, I'm not too fond of inherited "culture" anyway. My culture is the scene, not anything I was born into. And of course I'm not the only one who feels this way, like I've noted before how there are basically no Catholics in the scene, because Catholicism obviously conflicts with the values held in it, and no one involved is going to stay in it just because of culture or heritage because being involved also means rejecting the culture of your birth and upbringing.

Not being accepted by a group that hates your former group that you renounce seems pretty odd. Take for example Mormons. Both the right (fundamentalist Christians) and the left (social liberals) hate Mormons. But if an ex-Mormon renounced it and became a fundamentalist Christian you wouldn't see fundies rejecting them, actually they'd probably be quite popular writing about and preaching about the evils and lies of Mormonism and how they were freed from that. Similarly you don't see liberals ever condemning or refusing to accept ex-Mormons, I've never heard anyone attack Kyrsten Sinema or the director of the anti-Mormon film 8: The Mormon Proposition over this after all.

And if you're in some clan that benefited a lot from Assad and you're going to keep supporting him out of self-interest, that seems pretty selfish and certainly not excusable. I suppose life was pretty good for certain elites in Nazi Germany after all.

Not liking a group's support for a murderous dictator is not advocating genocide against them. Calling for an end to apartheid for example was obviously not supporting an Afrikaner genocide.

Yes, but using the way of thinking you displayed in the opening post, because of the Apartheid every single Afrikaner was "horrible"

Not every single one, just every single one that supported Apartheid. Which was not even a majority.

And as noted above, please note that expressing my opinion of a group as negative doesn't mean I hate every single person in that group. For example what do you think my overall opinion of white evangelicals is?

[politicus]

But like I've said before, I'm not too fond of inherited "culture" anyway...

Not being accepted by a group that hates your former group that you renounce seems pretty odd.

Not being able to switch between ethnic (incl. ethno-religious) groups is the normal situation and switching directly from a group to its traditional enemy is obvioulsy harder.

The postmodern US and Western situation where you (to a certain degree, since you are still limited by factors like skin colour and sex) get to chose your identity is an anomaly historically speaking and doesnt exist in most of the world - incl. a country like Syria.

You totally missed my point about the Alawites being divided.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Stalin didn't treat the Georgians any better than any other group and they weren't a crucial pillar of support for him.

Despite being a Georgian, Stalin became a Russian nationalists, or even a Russian chauvinist. When they fallen apart during the last months of Lenin's life, the latter accused the former of "All-Russian nationalism" and planned to use this to remove Stalin as Secretary General (fortunately for Joe, Lenin was already dying and unable to contuct this operation).

As Stalin himself said about his native land: "a small territory of Russia that calls itseld 'Georgia'".

[politicus]

Stalin didn't treat the Georgians any better than any other group and they weren't a crucial pillar of support for him.

Despite being a Georgian, Stalin became a Russian nationalists, or even a Russian chauvinist. When they fallen apart during the last months of Lenin's life, the latter accused the former of "All-Russian nationalism" and planned to use this to remove Stalin as Secretary General (fortunately for Joe, Lenin was already dying and unable to contuct this operation).

As Stalin himself said about his native land: "a small territory of Russia that calls itseld 'Georgia'".

I know that Kal. I was just trying to show how silly BRTDs argument about a minority people being responsible for the deeds of "their" dictators was. I might as well have chosen Napoleon and the Corsicans, I dont accept the idea that the fact that Assad, unlike Stalin and Nappy, is building his support on part of his own community changes things morally.

Lets for the sake of argument assume Assad had converted to Sunni islam and oppressed the Alawites mercilessly, would that make the average Alawite any more or less "horrible"? Of course not.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

The thing is then most Alawites would be against Assad. What I'm calling horrible is anyone who supports Assad. Obviously that doesn't include every Alawite, and apparentely not even some clan leaders. But it's impossible to support Assad and have any legitimate claim to morality, it'd be just like supporting Hitler.

Also the whole conversion and choosing one's own identity being only a Western thing is definitely not the case, people in Africa convert to all sorts of different churches and sects all the time, and it's probably just as common in Brazil as the US. There's areas in Mexico now where conversion to Islam is now becoming fairly common. This morning the guest speaker (a black preacher who's actually the father of a woman who speaks fairly regularly) before his sermon asked for us to pray for him and his wife as the next day they were traveling to Colombia, and then Shanghai in China to help set up underground churches. One of the co-lead pastors (they are a married couple) is from a Vietnamese immigrant family that is Buddhist and she converted at age 19. This stuff happens everywhere. Quite frankly finding out about a Damascus Vineyard wouldn't surprise me at all.

[afleitch]

Also the whole conversion and choosing one's own identity being only a Western thing is definitely not the case, people in Africa convert to all sorts of different churches and sects all the time, and it's probably just as common in Brazil as the US. There's areas in Mexico now where conversion to Islam is now becoming fairly common. This morning the guest speaker (a black preacher who's actually the father of a woman who speaks fairly regularly) before his sermon asked for us to pray for him and his wife as the next day they were traveling to Colombia, and then Shanghai in China to help set up underground churches. One of the co-lead pastors (they are a married couple) is from a Vietnamese immigrant family that is Buddhist and she converted at age 19. This stuff happens everywhere. Quite frankly finding out about a Damascus Vineyard wouldn't surprise me at all.

I don't know why you seem to almost exclusively equate changing one's identity with religious conversion.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Well that's what applies to the type of identity in question. Not in all ways one would identify themselves of course.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Well that's what applies to the type of identity in question. Not in all ways one would identify themselves of course.

The problem is that in Syria, blood ties, clan allegiances, and social connections are deeply wrapped up in one's religious group. The cleft nature of Syrian society and the centuries of bad blood between the various groups make conversion practically impossible. Again, religion is more than just religion, which is what makes Syrian Alawites converting to something else different from Chinese converting to Christianity or Mexicans converting to Islam. To put things in an American context, try to imagine a White Mississippian converting to being Black and you'll begin to get an idea.

[patrick1]

Do we all remember when BRTD was fashioning himself a Serbian nationalist/apologist for a while?  Good...goood.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Do we all remember when BRTD was fashioning himself a Serbian nationalist/apologist for a while?  Good...goood.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Well that's what applies to the type of identity in question. Not in all ways one would identify themselves of course.

The problem is that in Syria, blood ties, clan allegiances, and social connections are deeply wrapped up in one's religious group. The cleft nature of Syrian society and the centuries of bad blood between the various groups make conversion practically impossible. Again, religion is more than just religion, which is what makes Syrian Alawites converting to something else different from Chinese converting to Christianity or Mexicans converting to Islam. To put things in an American context, try to imagine a White Mississippian converting to being Black and you'll begin to get an idea.

No way man, ethno-religious identity is SO not scene.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Well that's what applies to the type of identity in question. Not in all ways one would identify themselves of course.

The problem is that in Syria, blood ties, clan allegiances, and social connections are deeply wrapped up in one's religious group. The cleft nature of Syrian society and the centuries of bad blood between the various groups make conversion practically impossible. Again, religion is more than just religion, which is what makes Syrian Alawites converting to something else different from Chinese converting to Christianity or Mexicans converting to Islam. To put things in an American context, try to imagine a White Mississippian converting to being Black and you'll begin to get an idea.

No way man, ethno-religious identity is SO not scene.

It's more than not scene. It's restrictive, infringes on one's freedom and personal beliefs, and creates factionalism and conflict both between groups and within them if someone wants to leave the group or interact outside of (example marry someone outside of the group) and is completely in conflict with progressive values.

Of course that's to be expected in a place like Syria, but it's pretty absurd that people still push it and try to preserve it in the West.

[afleitch]

Of course that's to be expected in a place like Syria, but it's pretty absurd that people still push it and try to preserve it in the West.

Says the white American Christian.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

...an identity I chose. I'm thinking of people like oakvale insisting people can't quit being Catholic or choose not to be, even if they don't believe on God. Or some Jewish parents getting pissy about their kids marrying non-Jews. Religuous identity should be EXCLUSIVELY ones own choice.

[afleitch]

...an identity I chose. I'm thinking of people like oakvale insisting people can't quit being Catholic or choose not to be, even if they don't believe on God. Or some Jewish parents getting pissy about their kids marrying non-Jews. Religuous identity should be EXCLUSIVELY ones own choice.

What choice? You're a white American male who was nominally Christian who chose yet another Christian church. People who 'find god' in America seem to find the same god of the people around them. Same is true of other nations.  That's an ethno religious identity too.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

But if I became an atheist, I'd be just that. I wouldn't be considered a Christian in any way. It's not an ethnoreligious identity, if you become an atheist and you are considered completely unaffiliated then.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But you would still be part of the dominant small 'c' christian culture of America. Your cultural allusions would be 'christian', your holidays would be 'christian', and you would see the world from a 'christian' perspective. Whatever term someone chooses to slap on themselves is, in some respects, the least relevant thing of all.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

But you would still be part of the dominant small 'c' christian culture of America. Your cultural allusions would be 'christian', your holidays would be 'christian', and you would see the world from a 'christian' perspective. Whatever term someone chooses to slap on themselves is, in some respects, the least relevant thing of all.

But that would also be true of someone born and raised in an irreligious family in America. That also would be true of your average white convert to Buddhism in America.

My main point is that ethno-religious identity is pretty ugly since the logical and too frequent conclusion from it is that anyone who leaves what they were born in or abandoned it is often shunned and considered by that group to be this. At the very least, respect the right of one to disassociate with the group and don't try to force the label on them after that. Oddly I'd actually expect afleitch to agree with me on this.

[Bacon King]

assuming you even consider them Muslim at all, which I don't.

brtd bro when did you become an expert on islamic theology

[afleitch]

But you would still be part of the dominant small 'c' christian culture of America. Your cultural allusions would be 'christian', your holidays would be 'christian', and you would see the world from a 'christian' perspective. Whatever term someone chooses to slap on themselves is, in some respects, the least relevant thing of all.

But that would also be true of someone born and raised in an irreligious family in America. That also would be true of your average white convert to Buddhism in America.

My main point is that ethno-religious identity is pretty ugly since the logical and too frequent conclusion from it is that anyone who leaves what they were born in or abandoned it is often shunned and considered by that group to be this. At the very least, respect the right of one to disassociate with the group and don't try to force the label on them after that. Oddly I'd actually expect afleitch to agree with me on this.

The thing is, you don't see it in yourself. That is the problem. You are a whiter and white Christian; your choice of denomination has not set you apart from that. You are a prime example of someone who is tied to a cultural-religious identity. You have not explored alternative spiritual and religious 'truths.'

The fact that I am an atheist, does not remove me from that community either. I've said at various times in the past that I would still consider myself part of the Scottish Catholic community in terms of my wider cultural identity because that's the family I lam part of in, the nature of the town I was raised in and the educational environment I was brought up in. If I suddenly became a Buddhist it wouldn't affect that attachment one iota either. It is not something one can easily abandon.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

And that's the thing that I'm saying is wrong. If I became an atheist (as I was at one point), that's all I'd be. None of my atheist friends still claim to be a "white Christian" in an ethnic religious identity. They are simply an atheist, and that's that. That also applies for those raised Catholic, they don't consider themselves still part of some sort of "Minnesota Catholic community" because such a thing really doesn't exist, at least not in any level beyond a basic church community. What type of "greater Catholic community" exists for some kid that grew up in a middle class Twin Cities suburb in a neighborhood full of both Catholics and Protestants and attended a public school with the same people? (Or small city/rural area where the same thing applied). There was a Star Tribune article about a year ago people that were formally quitting the Catholic church because of the gay marriage fight. I doubt the situation for them is any different. And hence why I find the idea of being an atheist Catholic pretty absurd. There might be a sort of Minnesota white Christian culture, but it's the dominant culture so everyone's going to get exposed to it, even if not white or Christian.