SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative...Authority Act of 2013 (Law'd/STR)

[MaxQue]

A constituent has suggested to me that requiring a majority of a region's citizens to sign a petition requesting that a new convention be held might be too high a bar to set. As an alternative, we might consider replacing that requirement with "a number of signatures greater than half the number of votes cast by citizens of the region in the last presidential election."

I'm not quite sure which is best. What do the rest of you think?

That's better, since voters that missed the last three elections and are about to be deregistered won't bother to sign a petition.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yes, but rather then delaying the current amendments, I would just throw that in to a second round of amendments.

What threshold is preferable, if any? 1/3? 10%?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Okay, let me respond more fully to this a bit later, but here is the gist: I have serious Constitutional concerns about Sections 1 and 4, and in other areas I think the Constitution already takes care of a lot of this. I can't go line-by-line now. But I think specific legislation, which is how this is written, dealing with the Pacific situation should be the last resort.

I advise the Senate to develop the basic guidelines that Nix alludes to because that gives us in the DoJ more concrete territory on which to not only operate but which to apply elsewhere.

Section 1 is a title? What could be unconstitutional about a bill title.

Section 4, just states that a Region can't devolve any other authority too use (the Final Constitution grants their legislative powers to use and then states "All other matters shall be exercised by Atlasian Senate"). In my opinion, both are unconsttutional grants because the altering of the Senat'es authority is a unconstitutioanl attempt to amend Article I and thus violates Aritcle VII. But we don't know what the court will rule on these matters and the specific issue of the legislative authority has not been raised and may not be raised at this juncture at all. In words of Scalia, "Some legal questions will never be answered because a conflcit of a legal nature may never arise concerning them". In that situation, or that of the ability of the Region to do this being upheld, the Senate should at least have its position stated in as statute. And I am confident I can defend the ability of the Senate to delegate any powers legally granted to it, though the necessary and proper clause.

Meant section 2, sorry. No, I fully support the principle behind the bill, and normally I would have no trouble with delegating back to the region, but I just think you have to be careful about how you do that. What you don't want to do is require regions to have or to use branches of government, because they don't have to.

I agree with tightening the 17th amendment as well, although one second to vote is not Constitutional, IMO. Can we just say at least that no court in "real life" would let something like stand? It's disenfranchisement.

Well keep in mind that all of this is made conditional on the region's having delegated its legislative authority to us. So if they can do whatever they can use whatever structure they prefer, unless and an until they leave it at our doorstep. Then they get and initiative proceess.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

By passing the Final Constitution, the former Pacific Region irrevocably surrendered its autonomous existence originally granted to it by the Constitution. There is nothing preventing the Senate from establishing a new government in the territory, but such a government would not be a government in a federation but rather one in a devolved state; any and all of its decisions would be superseded by any actions of the federal government.

While I may sympathize with a lot of your points, nothing shall be irrevocable, ever. The people of Pacific can't be forever unable to change their system of government (or lack of thereof) just because three people voted a certain way.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendments have about two hours left, but the storms will probably drive me off before then.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Lost power for six hours. DAMN IT!!!


The amendments have been adopted.

I will compose a current text so we can see where we are.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Section 6: Ratification Amendment
AN AMENDMENT

To guarantee that the process for amending the Atlasian Constitution remains open and democratic, the following amendment is passed by the Senate and sent to the regions for ratification.

1. The Seventeenth Amendment is hereby repealed.

2. Article VII, Section 1, shall be restored to its earlier text:

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Section 7: Legality of Pacific Constitution
1. Nothing in this act shall be construed as any admission of or advocacy for the legality of the "Final Constitution" of the Pacific, or any part thereof.
[/quote]

[Sbane]

Time for a final vote?

[DemPGH]

Yankee, that gets my full blessing, especially considering the circumstances. I initially had some concern about 2.1, but what you are trying to do is prevent them from specifically delegating to you, the Senate, and I have no problem with that. I don't think the Constitution allows them to do that per se. And federal law is supreme.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Time for a final vote?

[Napoleon]

I'm concerned about giving the President authority to appoint someone. It would be better to designate the SoFE already confirmed by the Senate.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'm concerned about giving the President authority to appoint someone. It would be better to designate the SoFE already confirmed by the Senate.

Would you go for assigning the power to the Regional Senator, as Section 5 did prior to being changed into an Amendment and Section 3 still does?

That way it is someone who carries the authority of the Region.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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[/quote]

[Napoleon]

I'm concerned about giving the President authority to appoint someone. It would be better to designate the SoFE already confirmed by the Senate.

Would you go for assigning the power to the Regional Senator, as Section 5 did prior to being changed into an Amendment and Section 3 still does?

That way it is someone who carries the authority of the Region.

I'd prefer the current text to that, actually.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.


Also, I will need a text to be composed effecting that change if you plan to pursue. If You could always take the one I composed, eliminate the words between the bolded code and replace them so with your preferred ones.

Either way, I think we should eliminate the President's responsibility in Section 5.

[Napoleon]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.

That's true, I just don't think Senators should be given responsibilities outside of the Senate, you know? Would you support giving it to the SoFE?

[MaxQue]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.

That's true, I just don't think Senators should be given responsibilities outside of the Senate, you know? Would you support giving it to the SoFE?

Perhaps we should ask to the SoFE if he is interested, first of all.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.

That's true, I just don't think Senators should be given responsibilities outside of the Senate, you know? Would you support giving it to the SoFE?

Outside the Senate? You don't say!

I think I'd be more open to merging the Senate and Cabinet, and holding elections every two months for all seats on a party list system. Basically a psuedo-parliamentary system. We could still find a way to incorporate the regions, but balance them with population. Reapportioning could take place every six months or so.

I would prefer the Regional SEnator because he is elected by the peopel in question, but anything is better then the President appointing another Xahar.

Keep in mind that Xahar could just as easily be appointed by a President as SoFE and then be waived through a confirmation hearing, only to effect the same kind of thing. In my experience the Senate has been rather inneffective at stopping bad nominess save for the most obvious cases like a BK. (I would cite KP as AG, you would probably cite Adam Griffin as GM).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Either way, I shall need a text. I can't process an amendment that does not exist.

[Хahar 🤔]

Are you suggesting that there is anyone in Atlasia who would do a better job as GM than Adam Griffin is presently doing?

[Napoleon]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.

That's true, I just don't think Senators should be given responsibilities outside of the Senate, you know? Would you support giving it to the SoFE?

Outside the Senate? You don't say!

I think I'd be more open to merging the Senate and Cabinet, and holding elections every two months for all seats on a party list system. Basically a psuedo-parliamentary system. We could still find a way to incorporate the regions, but balance them with population. Reapportioning could take place every six months or so.

I would prefer the Regional SEnator because he is elected by the peopel in question, but anything is better then the President appointing another Xahar.

Keep in mind that Xahar could just as easily be appointed by a President as SoFE and then be waived through a confirmation hearing, only to effect the same kind of thing. In my experience the Senate has been rather inneffective at stopping bad nominess save for the most obvious cases like a BK. (I would cite KP as AG, you would probably cite Adam Griffin as GM).

I voted to confirm Adam Griffin (but I admit to rarely reading his update thread, if ever).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Do you care to share why? A regional senator is a elected by the Region in question and thus carries that authority of having been elected by the people who are to be effected.

That's true, I just don't think Senators should be given responsibilities outside of the Senate, you know? Would you support giving it to the SoFE?

Outside the Senate? You don't say!

I think I'd be more open to merging the Senate and Cabinet, and holding elections every two months for all seats on a party list system. Basically a psuedo-parliamentary system. We could still find a way to incorporate the regions, but balance them with population. Reapportioning could take place every six months or so.

I would prefer the Regional SEnator because he is elected by the peopel in question, but anything is better then the President appointing another Xahar.

Keep in mind that Xahar could just as easily be appointed by a President as SoFE and then be waived through a confirmation hearing, only to effect the same kind of thing. In my experience the Senate has been rather inneffective at stopping bad nominess save for the most obvious cases like a BK. (I would cite KP as AG, you would probably cite Adam Griffin as GM).

I voted to confirm Adam Griffin (but I admit to rarely reading his update thread, if ever).

You did abstain the first time and expressed reluctance about confirming a chairman. I am sure there was a better example of a cabinet secretary that you could identify with, but this was the first one I thought of.

Are you suggesting that there is anyone in Atlasia who would do a better job as GM than Adam Griffin is presently doing?

This disease must be spreading in the water supply or something because so many of those on the left on this site love to over read and exaggerate what others say to make a point that isn't supported by what was stated. No, not in that post.

I have expressed disatisfaction that he didn't take full advantage of the Pacific Region's crisis to bring a certain degree of realism to the game, but not in this thread and not in relation to this bill.

Where is that text, Nappy?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I prefer your amendment, Yankee... but I could go for the SoFE too.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Nappy, if a text isn't forthcomming tonight, I will offer mine. We can't just sit here.

[Napoleon]

Section 5: Enusring the Ability of Regions to Amendment their Constitutions
AN AMENDMENT

To guarantee that a process is available for the citizen's of a region to amend their regional constitutions, the following amendment is passed by the Senate and sent to the regions for ratification.

Article IV, Section 1 of the Third Constitution is amended as follows:

[quote]Section 1: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Governor as chief executive officer, and may establish other executive posts as they wish, but no executive member may be elected for a term of more than six months.
2. Regions may establish elected legislatures for themselves to make proper laws and electoral procedures.
3. Regions may establish judiciaries for themselves; However, if they choose not to, the federal Supreme Court shall arbitrate in all election disputes, but only insofar as Regional Law may provide. Any Region may vest all or part of its judicial power in the Supreme Court of Atlasia.
4. Regions are autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves and their elections as they wish, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.
5. The citizens of a region shall have the power to petition for a new regional constitution. A federal official designated by the President The Secretary of Federal Elections shall convene a regional constitutional convention for a region upon the application of a majority of a region's citizens.  The replacement constitution proposed by the convention shall become operative when ratified by three-fifths of that region's citizens who vote in in a public poll administered by said federal official. All public polls mandated under this section shall be via public post in the Voting Booth and shall last for exactly one week. This provision shall not interfere with the authority of the regions to designate other means by which their constitutions may be amended.