Roman Polanski says women today are too masculine
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 08:21:37 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Roman Polanski says women today are too masculine
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]
Author Topic: Roman Polanski says women today are too masculine  (Read 5430 times)
GMantis
Dessie Potter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,947
Bulgaria


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 10:39:54 AM »

Are we actually going to use terms like "masculine" and "feminine" at face value, without adding the caveats that should be obvious to all by the 21st century? Masculinity and feminity are social constructs, which reflect the expectation society has toward men and women respectively. They do not actually have an inherent link to a person's sex.
I thought that the absurd idea than masculinity and feminity are social constructs was more typical of the mid 20th centuries and has long since been rejected. See this case, for example
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 11:11:17 AM »


Lol!  Masculine by Canadian man standards.
Logged
Link
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,426
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2013, 11:12:28 AM »

You can certainly argue that about what's "too masculine" but women are certainly more masculine than 40 years ago.

Someone obviously thinks pubic hair enhances femininity.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 11:20:39 AM »

Are we actually going to use terms like "masculine" and "feminine" at face value, without adding the caveats that should be obvious to all by the 21st century? Masculinity and feminity are social constructs, which reflect the expectation society has toward men and women respectively. They do not actually have an inherent link to a person's sex.
I thought that the absurd idea than masculinity and feminity are social constructs was more typical of the mid 20th centuries and has long since been rejected. See this case, for example

I think you miss the point. The gender theory doesn't mean to say human beings can be toyed around and shaped the way that most fits some mad psychiatrist. Any attempt to force an identity on someone can result in tragedies like Reimer's - in fact, whether or not he had a Y chromosome matters little to the moral of the story. The whole point of gender studies is precisely to deconstruct the idea that people are male or female and therefore should act a certain way, and let everyone free to express themselves however they feel.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 11:26:42 AM »

What about Lady Gaga? Is she masculine? Does she belong to a 3rd, 4th or 5th sex? Is she going to be the 21st Century female standard? I don't give a f*** for what Polanski says, oth. I'll watch his movies and that's all.
Logged
Lurker
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 765
Norway
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2013, 07:44:13 AM »

The whole point of gender studies is precisely to deconstruct the idea that people are male or female and therefore should act a certain way, and let everyone free to express themselves however they feel.

Just curious: Is "gender studies" generally a respected academic field in your country? I get the impression (which may well be wrong) that those kinds of academics get more respect/attention in France than they do here. In Norway, gender studies is seen as a bit of a joke by much of the country, particularly after a very critical documentary series a few years back

As for Polanski, I think it's pretty unbelievable how that child rapist is still treated as a hero by the film industry...
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2013, 07:51:17 AM »

Are we actually going to use terms like "masculine" and "feminine" at face value, without adding the caveats that should be obvious to all by the 21st century? Masculinity and feminity are social constructs, which reflect the expectation society has toward men and women respectively. They do not actually have an inherent link to a person's sex.
I thought that the absurd idea than masculinity and feminity are social constructs was more typical of the mid 20th centuries and has long since been rejected. See this case, for example

Except no. The Reimer case is too ambigious to prove anything (after all would things have been better had he grown up male? What would have happened if he tried to find a girlfriend?). There are traits which are more common to males and to females but those are traits and don't distribute evenly across the population, essentializing them and saying "X is what all Y do/are" is a social construct. Transgenderism is actually proof of this (and the evidence is pointing towards the idea that Transgenderism is biological).

I don't think Gender studies is really taken seriously anywhere.

Lurker, was that documentary 'Brainwash' by any chance?
Logged
Lurker
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 765
Norway
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2013, 08:02:51 AM »

Lurker, was that documentary 'Brainwash' by any chance?

Indeed. To say that it attracted controversy would be understating it! (though I am a bit surprised that an Irishman has heard of it Tongue )
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2013, 08:13:00 AM »

People who don't take gender studies seriously do so for pretty obvious reasons (see Plato's cavern allegory - gender stereotypes are so ubiquitous in society that questioning them is like telling people their whole life was a lie).
Logged
Lurker
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 765
Norway
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 08:17:33 AM »

People who don't take gender studies seriously do so for pretty obvious reasons (see Plato's cavern allegory - most people will never admit that the way they have been socialized throughout their lives has warped their vision of reality).

I don't think that anybody (ok, maybe some morons) would disagree that socialization plays a part. The argument of those in the natural sciences has tended to be that "gender studies" goes too far in rejecting the role of biology.
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 08:21:25 AM »

People who don't take gender studies seriously do so for pretty obvious reasons (see Plato's cavern allegory - most people will never admit that the way they have been socialized throughout their lives has warped their vision of reality).

I don't think that anybody (ok, maybe some morons) would disagree that socialization plays a part. The argument of those in the natural sciences has tended to be that "gender studies" goes too far in rejecting the role of biology.

I don't know how far gender studies have gone exactly, but most people I have seen (both on the internet and IRL) still attribute biological origins to things that clearly the fruit of socialization.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 09:15:58 AM »

Lurker, was that documentary 'Brainwash' by any chance?

Indeed. To say that it attracted controversy would be understating it! (though I am a bit surprised that an Irishman has heard of it Tongue )

I'm a historian/Anthropologist interested in these sort of controversies so I picked it up somewhere. Any links on the controversies by the way?

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Obviously and trivally true, but the problem here is defining what biology does (Often these arguments descend into unfortunate metaphor about "animals" and stuff). That is not clear cut and it would be wrong to deduce some facts just because they are the conventional wisdom of contemporary scientists. After all, Behaviourism was pretty much the only form of scientific psychology in American Universities from Watson to the late 1950s. There is still a lot to figure out and I find a lot of this biological psychology is rather ahistorical and can't explain very well changes about by living in different societies (This should not be a defense of Gender Studies, at least not necessarily).
Logged
Lurker
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 765
Norway
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 09:57:33 AM »

Lurker, was that documentary 'Brainwash' by any chance?

Indeed. To say that it attracted controversy would be understating it! (though I am a bit surprised that an Irishman has heard of it Tongue )

I'm a historian/Anthropologist interested in these sort of controversies so I picked it up somewhere. Any links on the controversies by the way?

I could easily provide you with many links, but they probably wouldn't be much use unless you understand Norwegian. The entire series (7 episodes of 40 minutes) has been uploaded on Youtube btw, with English subtitles, so here's a link if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,135
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 06:13:57 PM »

Lurker, was that documentary 'Brainwash' by any chance?

Indeed. To say that it attracted controversy would be understating it! (though I am a bit surprised that an Irishman has heard of it Tongue )

I'm a historian/Anthropologist interested in these sort of controversies so I picked it up somewhere. Any links on the controversies by the way?

I could easily provide you with many links, but they probably wouldn't be much use unless you understand Norwegian. The entire series (7 episodes of 40 minutes) has been uploaded on Youtube btw, with English subtitles, so here's a link if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ


     I just watched the first part of that and saw Norwegian researchers claim that there are no biologically-based differences in how men and women think. That's a rather strange claim to make, given the existence of hormones like testosterone and estrogen.
Logged
ingemann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,226


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM »

People who don't take gender studies seriously do so for pretty obvious reasons (see Plato's cavern allegory - gender stereotypes are so ubiquitous in society that questioning them is like telling people their whole life was a lie).

...or they don't take them seriously because gender studies have a reputation of being more of ideological echo chamber populated by a academics who already agree with each other come with pretty far out claims once in a while, and if they make any original research outsiders rarely hear about it. At least that's my picture of American gender studies. From what I have seen of the Danish one, they seem more research oriented (primary sociology) and less "saying really stupid things" oriented, which have resulted in them being taken more serious.

Logged
Kitteh
drj101
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,436
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2013, 01:20:55 AM »

ideological echo chamber populated by a academics who already agree with each other

Is there any part of academia that this doesn't describe? ;p
Logged
MaxQue
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,600
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2013, 03:03:52 AM »

ideological echo chamber populated by a academics who already agree with each other

Is there any part of academia that this doesn't describe? ;p

Taxonomy.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,684
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2013, 05:11:29 PM »
« Edited: June 09, 2013, 05:16:52 PM by I Am Damo Suzuki »

I just watched the first part of that and saw Norwegian researchers claim that there are no biologically-based differences in how men and women think. That's a rather strange claim to make, given the existence of hormones like testosterone and estrogen.

Maybe, but there's not a way how men and women think, there are as many ways as men and women are alive. You cannot define what's intrinsacally masculine or feminine in the way how humans think, only to handle averages and behaviors more or less common to one or another sex, without knowing which percentage in a certain conduct is social conditioning and which role play the hormones. In addition the hormonal levels, that unlike the behaviors or ways of thinking are measurable, vary a lot among individuals. In other words, some girls are bigger than others.
Logged
Leftbehind
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,639
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2013, 05:45:23 PM »


Cheesy
Logged
ingemann
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,226


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 09:39:34 AM »

ideological echo chamber populated by a academics who already agree with each other

Is there any part of academia that this doesn't describe? ;p

No but gender studies seem to live more isolated, (most) other part of academia at least have to deal with the real world once in a while, so while they're echo chambers at least sometimes some fresh words are said or people with other opinions enter. Let take economy, while it's a ideological echo chamber populated by a bunch of people who are a little to happy to hear themselves talk and who have found the truth, the only truth and nothing but truth, at least there's other economists who sometimes call them out on it. The only people in gender studies seem to already have embraced the starting premise of women as victim of male opression, which make it a much more closed forum.
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,135
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2013, 02:49:30 PM »

I just watched the first part of that and saw Norwegian researchers claim that there are no biologically-based differences in how men and women think. That's a rather strange claim to make, given the existence of hormones like testosterone and estrogen.

Maybe, but there's not a way how men and women think, there are as many ways as men and women are alive. You cannot define what's intrinsacally masculine or feminine in the way how humans think, only to handle averages and behaviors more or less common to one or another sex, without knowing which percentage in a certain conduct is social conditioning and which role play the hormones. In addition the hormonal levels, that unlike the behaviors or ways of thinking are measurable, vary a lot among individuals. In other words, some girls are bigger than others.

     Certainly not all people of a given sex are the same, but there are clear predilections that exist, and I do not see how they are attributable to culture alone. Some women have more testosterone than others, but they all tend to have far less than the levels that are found in men. I agree that nature vs. nurture is not something that can be measured for the most part in this context, but to claim that human behavior is 100% nurture as these people did seems a little strange to me.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.048 seconds with 12 queries.